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1-3-2-4
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29 thoughts on “1-3-2-4”
I think this is really good. No novels in level one. I’ve been delaying novels more and more at this level and find that reading comes better and better the later they start. So, I might try no novel in level one bc it makes sense.
However, if I go big time reading in level 4, a small school with small numbers at the advanced levels, competing with “exploring foods” pos, I would stand to lose 5/10 students. So, I don’t think I’ll go that route at level 4 even if it makes sense to me.
I need to keep my “customers” happy.
I hate to sound silly but what are the procedures for novels in year two?
I can not make my students read most of those novels. Houdini is the only one I’ve had any success with. One year I had a class hide a whole classroom set of whatever it was I was trying to make them read. I mean they took all 20 copies and put them somewhere in the school where I couldn’t find them. This was 10 years ago, before we had movie talk and all of this other cool stuff to do. I had to write my own weird short story series, just so we’d have something to read.
My hat is off to all of you who can get through an entire novel with your classes. I don’t have the strength of will to push through that much collective resistance.
That’s hysterical, Anne! I suppose you didn’t need an and of the unit reflection from students asking them whether they liked the novel or not.
Reading a novel as a whole class has been tough for me as well. Half of the class always hates whatever the story is – no matter how hard I try to make it compelling, personalized, etc. So, this year, I am trying FVR the “Mike Peto Way” (thx!!!) with my level 4s. Maybe when they get to choose what they want to read (no grading, no accountability such as book reports, etc.), we will have better results. Of course, I am still planning on having volunteers share what they read and encourage discussion. My hope is, of course, that this way more kids will get interested in reading more of a variety of texts. We’ll see how it goes.
The idea of novels is fading. We have worked too hard and for too many years to float those brick-like things. We have wanted from them more than they can provide. I know that my time in New Delhi was not wasted, and not just because I was teaching in a classroom across the hallway from Linda Li, but also because right about the time the Invisibles happened, I also started initiating class with ten minutes (usually more because they were not feeling forced to do it) of free voluntary reading of the novels. High level kids were reading way down to simple texts. Low level kids were reading way up to harder texts. The key is that they got to choose the books that were laid out on the table as they walked in. No tests. No classroom sets. No read and discuss. No snow plow reading. No grades at all connected to the novels. Just FVR as Krashen says to do it. Only limited amounts of four or five copies of each of the novels. That was lucky because it was all the books I had available to me in my classroom in India….
This is what Beniko says about what Krashen recommends for FVR. We don’t do it and it is costing us:
Laurie Clarcq has said somewhere that she did not finish novels. Her goal was to get part way through and then those who liked it could finish it, and those who did not like it could read something else.
Blaine turned reading into more PQA.
Susan Gross plowed through.
Step 3 is reading. One key is to do what we can with what we have and keep our eye out for something better.
Here is something to consider: Difficult texts cam work if they are compelling. Less compelling text can work if they are simple (let’s say, 98% comprehensible).Compelling texts can pull us beyond the difficulties; simple texts give us satisfaction of completion with minimal work. (“Boring” is often a synonym for “difficult.” If “it” is boring that is because “I” am interesting. But if it is “difficult,” that is because I am “not so smart.”)
Last year, my academically weak Sp3’s came to me with zero CI, zero TPRS and lots of LPR (Lists, Paradigms, and Rules. Being weak academically, they had no heart-felt appreciation for either L, P, or R.) The novels were more accessible to them than textbook readings, but they were still above their reading ability. With FVR, they loved (!) Pobre Ana, because they could understand it. If we can get compelling and comprehensible, so much the better, but if we have to settle for comprehensible, we have to take what we can get. I think that is what Blaine meant when he used to say that “a bad day with TPRS is better than a good day otherwise.”
…one key is to do what we can with what we have and keep our eye out for something better….
We have that. Readings from stories that the kids made. That’s better.
We just made our first readings from some One Word Images we have done. I am making another civic building in the sky – a Library in the Sky. We can add our classes’ writing to it.
It could be a good place for people to see ideas and inspiration for how class-created readings can be.
I am not too sure about using others’ classes’ writings in my class, though. What do you guys think?
Here are the links:
First Year Stories: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CshaZFSPZBhFMekC5ygCG7fNSHr00q7uH_qBwS1mUMc/edit?usp=sharing
Second Year Stories:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OuV750FCmtZnnvYiV4oy2D45WABA6GaZNAcqNMsLiLg/edit?usp=sharing
Third Year Stories:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ipEt9LX3naXH_af_WuTekHqmE6rnZ11EyRnGewZIPjg/edit?usp=sharing
Fourth and Up Stories:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1z3zKBh02OwsXiC2MarEfo2kWTukgAW2ihPlr8PnnUQI/edit?usp=sharing
Stories are good for the library in the sky. Of course as a teacher we would look over any stories for class instruction. However if we are throwing out whole class readings that are NOT created by the class itself, then stories could be easily used for FVR. Just instruct students to choose stories with no less that 3-5 new words
… we can get compelling and comprehensible, so much the better, but if we have to settle for comprehensible, we have to take what we can get….
I disagree. We need to get to compelling.
…difficult texts cam work if they are compelling….
I agree but only for a few kids in the classroom. Texts that are too difficult beat up on the average level readers, which is not good for their confidence as the new CI classrooms start to again resemble the classrooms of old where there are smart kids and not so smart kids, and shit like tests.
I did not make it clear that in the second paragraph I switched to commenting about novels/ readings for FVR. I thus had individuality and self-selection in mind (V=voluntary). Given that clearer perspective, I would posit that difficult can only work to the degree that it is compelling, and compelling is based on individual interest.
“average level readers…smart kids” I see a distinction between reading levels and test-taking skills. The former may not result in great test takers, but often are interesting people. The latter work well in the basement of Bloom’s taxonomy, as they can memorize and produced it on the test, but they are not necessarily reflective people. I recognize that people could be both great test takers and great readers or weak in both; that someone’s reading skills have not yet developed but they are great listeners and so forth. And that is what I mean: smart as defined by reading and smart as defined by testing may overlap but are distinct.
We do FVR in the beginning of class. One of my students just told me that she really liked the stories in the folder she picked. That those were really good. My reply: “They are and you know why? Because they are written by students!” She was really surprised and I could see her mind starting to work. Knowing that your work might be “Published” and read by others is the greatest incentive to start writing.
In German I heavily rely on student written texts anyway, because most TPRS beginner novels get translated from Spanish and most of them don’t really work in German anyway.
Yes. The various interests and needs, to me anyway, are specific to the context of the class.
One Idea, I have is to gather end of the year freewrites and write stories from them. They will be easy to read because they include language that is mainy acquired from the stories. I wonder if this is reading down for most of the kids?
One shot at it will be to type up freewrites in Year 1 then have them as FVR in year two. Students I am sure will be wowed that they themselves have written those compelling stories.
Yes, I have used free writes that I really liked and typed them, not only for those kids, but for future years as well. I also use the class created stories, even OWIs and print them right after we read them in class together and add them to the folder. Then they can read them during FVR again. They go on my website too so they can read them from home and show their parents what they work on in class.
I have the readings sorted by class level, so the 1st year stories go in a different folder than the 2nd year stories. Ben wrote about making the class library in his book and using the student jobs for that. I’m just basically doing it right away because elementary kids will be too young to do this and I post them online anyway.
So if we do reading as fvr what do you do in second year for the rest of the time. If I read a novel as a class that takes up a good chunk of my class time, but is better to do fvr then after that 10-15 min what’s next?
Russ I have that same question. Some of students want to do their own stories and.have.me translate them. They want to play a kahoot online game. Definitely, these.kids are screen addicted.
If I remember right Ben had his kids do grammar for about a week. Later they were beginning for stories. Of course I do not want to punish them just be a matter of factly about it. I could say “the district is pushing grammar now since youll be going to high school next year. Time to copy verb charts! After we can make a verb wheel!”
Begging*
Russ the phrase “reading the novel as a class” is not something I do anymore. That is the old Read and Discuss of novels which I think is just kind of lame. But the question isn’t clear Russ, at least to me. Could you rephrase?
My question is we don’t do as many stories during second year and I really should not do a “class novel” anymore, then I will do fvr, but what do I do during class after that 10-15 min? I have learned to teach with stories and novels, if not doing those then what am I supposed to do?
Russ asks:
…I have learned to teach with stories and novels, if not doing those then what am I supposed to do?…
My opinion Russ is to do a one period story while in that same class processing the artist’s work and giving a quiz after the story*, and then the next day(s) use any combination of the 21 “reading options” that we talked about in Portland at our workshop. If you use the “basic” version of the story options (steps 4-7 only) then that will use up one or two classes, if you use more (up to 10 of the steps of the reading options) then that will use up three days after the story and if you go whole hog and use all 21 options that could conceivably drag you out to up to four classes reading the story. That gives new meaning to the term narrow and deep. I think it’s a marvelous thing to do, to go so deep. Each extra rep we get on a structure that naturally came up in the story is like ice cream to the kids’ hearing.
*so the suggested one day story sequence is FVR of the novels, story (gotta hustle to keep it around a half hour with the ideal in my opinion being 25 minutes, process artist’s work, quick quiz. Then up to four days (theoretical only; probably would never happen) with the reading options, then rinse and repeat for the next story. I believe in narrow and deep. I see many in our profession doing CI in a most cavalier fashion, getting what they think are enough reps but are in fact not enough reps. What most of us think is narrow and deep is really shallow and wide, in my opinion.
Thanks Ben that is very concise and I will definitely do that in my first year classes. My question for second year. I thought we weren’t creating as many stories. I will start SSR tomorrow with them and (thank God) we have a short day so after some procedural strut the day is over. But normally besides FVR what do I do in second year? I know everyone (including the research) is saying it’s not best but I am planning on reading Brandon brown wants a dog as a class with them because I want them to feel confident and because I know we need to focus on literacy, but if I shouldn’t read it with them as a class, what should i do instead with my second year kids? I hope that clears it up? Or am I reading wrong and I should be doing class stories and ROA with my second year kids too? Can I play my Robert Harrell phone-a-friend” card?
…if I shouldn’t read it with them as a class, what should i do instead with my second year kids?…
Of course there are no “shoulds” in this work and no one way to do anything. My own suggestion was to get away from the novels in levels 1 and 3 in particular and to use them more in levels 2 and 4. The idea for level 2 was to not let the kids have too many stories in level 2 so that they don’t get snotty in level 3, spoiled by too many stories which they did not appreciate enough in levels 1 and 2.
Of course, level 4 reading of authentic texts, of the simplest nature, is a desirable goal. Then after saying that, if you remember the history of this discussion Russ over the past six weeks or so, we got into dissing all forms of novels, but not that we didn’t diss the novels as much as we dissed the way we were teaching them, necessarily holding the kids accountable for novel content because if we didn’t then the kids would use the pages of the books for spitwads.
(This is not to say that some of the novels out there don’t need to be dissed. My Heavenly Father in Heaven, some of them are just so stinky bad. Like there is one about some pirates that I had to stop teaching because as the teacher I couldn’t understand what was going on. I’m not talking about Robert Harrell’s excellent North Sea Pirates book.)
So the point came this summer from Beniko Mason in her summary of what Dr. Krashen is really saying about reading, that it should be completely pleasurable and without the dreaded accountability card, which just ruins the experience for the kids. So it’s not like we are trying to confuse you Russ, we just don’t know what we are doing on this point right now.
So what we are going to do at this point in this discussion is kind of up to each one of us. I haven’t heard much lately on this topic because we always get too many threads going here.
I would say simply that in level 2, which is a very challenging level because most 10th graders seem to be in a kind of rude social space all that year, making them much harder to teach because they all seem to have that minor to major bitchy edge thing going on all the time, that in level 2 we just try to get as much FVR of novels going on to start class, drag it out as long as possible as authentic untested true FVR and then since this comment is getting too long anyway I would throw the question up to the group.
It’s a great question. What indeed do we do with second year kids when we are trying to do less stories and yet avoid association reading of novels with a grade?
I think Russ meant to highlight the differences of the 1st year and second year. I tol am interested. Ive done stories in year one and went heavy with reading in year one but it was forced. I was mechanical. Now I feel like creating stories and reading less in year one and two and do more oral stories.
My second year kids have both productive and non productive days mainly not using the stop signal and some students tuning out and some blurting. They want to play games online and do scary stories with.violence and soul possession. Have they been spoiled? Are they too plugged into netflix.and social media?
Steven said:
…they want to play games online ….
This just breaks my heart. I won’t even try to say why. And I won’t even address that second point you made Steven abut the violence and soul possession. I would come down with a hammer of righteousness on that bullshit even if it meant losing my job. Teachers can only take so much. I could see myself becoming the character played by John Goodman in O Brother Where Art Thou? in that situation.
Ben, I wrote about it in another thread and Tina replied on the “It Works for some” post. I am using this experience as a take away to develop a stronger relationship with this particular second year class. I know we as teachers put so much on ourselves but I am thinking in the “now”. What can I do now to maintain and develop a better relationship with my class? When I was doing untargeted stories, I didnt do any sort of “town meeting” no connection in L1. It was all L2. I don’t regret it. I just need to tweak it.
The other second year class has the imagination going but they were the ones who wanted a scary story because it was Friday. Some students who never speak (or blurt even) were suggesting answers but for me it was a no go. Only uplifting stories. We still have a powerful character that we may or mat not use.
I must say I love that movie. They have enough darkness we don’t need to provide any more.
“It is a fool who looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart”