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How Bob Patrick's Students Evaluated His Latin Classes This Year
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30 thoughts on “How Bob Patrick's Students Evaluated His Latin Classes This Year”
Bob,
Thanks for posting this. I used this idea today among my Latin II and Latin I students. The responses were interesting. What many people liked was the CI stories. While I am no Ben Slavic, I made my best effort to transition to a CI classroom at the end of the year, in 4th quarter. Needless to say, some of the 4%ers were unhappy because they enjoyed the more traditional grammar/reading approach. However, they have success with it. They are also superstars and want to feel like superstars. However, many more of my students enjoyed my transition. It has been difficult, but I am excited about next year. I am hoping that I can find a nice balance.
I have one problem to address. Our superstars, how do we get them to feel like they are learning even faster with CI than with grammar? How do we give them the grammar/explanation in detail that they crave? Can they be accelerated? I know that TCI really doesn’t work with levels, but how do I keep them excited! I don’t want to alienate my 4%ers which is risky for me.
My head is spinning. Maybe that is normal. Ben et al, is that normal?
I read more of my students responses. Several, maybe half said that they liked the structure that I had before. Do you think that because I am new to the method that I am not having the structure that they desire? I was very structured before. I wonder if they are responding to the shift. Many also “feel” like they are not learning as much even though they understand the stories and what is going on. Is there any way to convince them or will the method do that in time?
I just read this other question. It’s so huge bc if there only some way to just say, “You don’t feel like you are learning but you are” and have them really get that. But they won’t get it bc a lot of their perception is from their parents. That’s a fight we all have to fight.
Maybe get more information from the Rigor category to the right here. Listening is rigorous, but doesn’t feel that way, so it’s a tough sell. So what to do? The main thing is not to feel defensive. I bet we have well over one hundred posts discussing this point here.
Maybe a search but using what keywords? I don’t know the answer. I guess it’s like when the early explorers had to say to people before leaving port, “Gosh, I don’t know. I just don’t feel like my ship is going to sail off the end. I can’t really explain it.” Would that change the view of the interlocuters? I don’t think so.
That’s your problem. I say yours because I work in a school where the department and the administration get it, so that fight, for me, is now officially over.
Other comments welcome.
Starting this year, we accelerated any of our outstanding achievers who were willing…after their first year. We have found that first year of input so incredibly important that we haven’t “accelerated” that at all. But, students in their second or third year who are high achievers and willing to “skip” a level were allowed to. It was an outstanding success. Only one student struggled. She came in from another district and did not have our amazing year-one teacher, but really wanted to try it. I think that the reason that she did not make the same gains is that she did not ever come to understand that she had to really pay attention in class. In fact that is the hardest thing to train students who have not had a TPRS/CI teacher to do. We are lucky. We are a small building and guidance/admins have a great deal of confidence in what we do.
with love,
Laurie
…she had to really pay attention in class. In fact that is the hardest thing to train students who have not had a TPRS/CI teacher to do….
That’s pretty much it right there.
It’s normal that the four percenters revolt. That yours didn’t is a tribute to your work. They usually revolt. How to keep them happy? Two suggestions:
1. give them a grammar book and let them take it home and keep that differentiated group progressing at home in a worksheet environment. It will do zero good (traditional teachers reading this, yes, I said zero. I didn’t say “little good”, I said zero good), but they will be happy. Of course, only four percent of the four percenters will actually do the work, but hey, you offered.
2. tell them the truth, that grammar is correctly spoken language, and the only way to learn grammar is to hear the language spoken over and over and over. Tell them that if they want to see what grammar (the real correctly spoken kind) looks like on paper, they would need to wait a minimum of two years, and then they can study it. Tell them that the vehicle to paper grammar is correctly spoken language but they have to wait for that.
If they are really that smart, appeal to their sense of right thinking, accurate thinking, by asking them if they really think that they would be excited by the two dimensional kind of paper grammar. Ask them what is exciting about it. Ask them really what they crave. A really clear minded kid might see that his mind doesn’t crave paper grammar at all, and that it is only his mechanical analytical habits of learning from the past that make that stuff look appealing. Try to get the kids to understand the rigor involved in just listening. I know, I know, it’s asking a lot, but a few of them might get it. If their parents are involved, print and show them this:
https://benslavic.com/thoughts-on-pacing-guides.html
Is it that many of these kids felt more comfortable and confident with their target grade (A, B, C ,…) in the other format? Maybe now, as was mentioned, they have to actually do some work (listen and respond) and can’t depend on some memory sprints to get through things.
Thank you Ben for posting this incredible post. And what a great lesson to take away at the end of an exhausting year. I too survey my students at the end of a semester or year and I get similar responses, but not as systematically as Patrick. This is exactly what I needed to hear . And, I dared tell my department chair to not buy me traditional grammar books and workbooks for next year as I don’t need or use them!
I admire Bob’s evaluation so much. And how right he is that our students are the only people who are really qualified to evaluate us. I asked for feedback for many years, and got some gratifying comments from my students, but didn’t know how to ask precise questions that would be really helpful with future classes. I was either too vague, or asked too detailed questions. His three questions are so simple that they seem obvious, once you’ve read them. Good job, Bob!
Jeff,
Regarding your fourpercenters: Over the last few years, I’ve learned to watch for them. I try and have private conversations with them. I acknowledge that they have questions that don’t seem to interest the others, that they like to translate, etc. I let them know that they can translate anything we do, if they want, and I often loan them a student grammar if they really are interested in this sort of thing. They can take it home and read it to their hearts’ content. I also say to them, both privately and in front of the whole class something like this: guys, you have to trust me on this. I know what I am talking about. You are simply learning so much more Latin than you can imagine right now. By the year’s end, I will be able to demonstrate that to you, but for now you have to trust me. Play the game with me, every day, and this will work.” That seems to soothe any rumpled fourpercenters. I have also found that acceleration can happen in the second or third year, but not the first. I have had several first year students who simply skip second year and go right into a third year class. They do just fine.
These students that are skipping a second year class after a first year class, are they headed into anther CI classroom? One of my 8th graders who has had me for 3 years took a test to get into Spanish 2 at the high school level, didn’t do “well” enough and has to take Spanish 1 all over even though she’s taken Spanish for 3 YEARS! YIKES! What am I doing wrong? This student was not a 4 percenter-if she was, she probably would have done well on that preassessment test and entered into Spanish 2.
I do feel at times that I’m not preparing my 8th graders well enough for high school Spanish, where they will encounter the traditional classroom.
This may be the most kicked dead horse on this website. It is so common that a high school teacher does this perfidy. And the kids believe it and quit. Such silliness.
YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. You prepared the kid wonderfully and then, bc that was required, you did the hand off to a wolf in sheep’s clothing. And you wonder what you did wrong? Totally nothing.
Can you do anything? Do you want this high school teacher to like you? Can you change this kid’s language path at the high school? If the answer to these questions is “no” then stop even thinking about it.
It occurred to me today that I have found an answer to a question I asked several weeks ago: who are the fourpercenters? How do we describe them/know them?
They are the students who love learning ABOUT the language. There’s nothing wrong with that. Knowing about the language comes in handy, as Krashen says, when editing work. Fourpercenters also tend to like editing their work. Having said that, just because they love learning ABOUT the language does not mean that they can skip acquiring the language, and that process is the same for them as anyone else. It’s also why we run into colleagues who are so resistant. They never really acquired the language much, so they are terrified at the thought of what we are doing here. Even that’s okay–as long as they get busy acquiring the language they are supposed to be teaching. That may sound crazy to some of you, but there’s not a Latin teacher here who didn’t have to acquire the language AFTER learning all ABOUT it.
…just because they love learning ABOUT the language does not mean that they can skip acquiring the language….
and
…colleagues …never really acquired the language much, so they are terrified at the thought of what we are doing here….
…that’s okay–as long as they get busy acquiring the language they are supposed to be teaching….
What’s great about it is that any teacher brave enough to use CI and step out of that L1 based comfort zone can work towards acquisition in their own classrooms, sharing the process with the kids, especially in those shorter courses like in a 6-12 week exploratory class. They can keep it to PQA, and simple PQA at that, as I did when teaching Spanish without actually knowing it by relying almost entirely on a little over 100 words on the wall. I learned a lot of Spanish by teaching it.
Another thing, watch a film a night in the TL. I have noticed that the up and down with the eyes from scene to English subtitles really gets my deeper mind active when I sleep after watching a movie. Judy’s little book on how to use film to teach a language (o.k. little pamplet, whatever, we just want it here on the site in the fall, Judy) can be of use in this regard. It’s all about working the language, the more hours we get the more command we have, right?
Bob I will put this up as a post.
Bob–could you explain the “sneeze the English” comment? It seems to mean that, for each new structure, a designated student will say the English translation as a fast kind of “sneeze” each time that structure is spoken (in Latin) in the class?
If this works, it sounds novel and like something my more active, attention-craving students would enjoy.
lori
I suggested it about a month ago but the idea was quickly debunked by the Debunker, who also debunked movie reading. Bob found the sneeze move amusing and is trying it out. I won’t go forward with it bc the Debunker is always right on pedagogy and just about everything else. I wish I could find the comment containing the actual debunk to make my point, but there are too many comments.
understood! And I agree with you on the “Debunker’s” pedagogy. Great moniker, btw.
She’s a gem. One of a kind.
A bit OT, but I wanted to share. Most of the time we don’t see results of our efforts, but sometimes we do. Today I had two very nice encounters.
1. For the past week visiting German students have been sharing in classes and visiting the campus. Today one of them was in my sixth period class. At the end of the period he thanked me for everything and told me that he had always imagined German classes in America as being places where the teaching talked in English about the language [hmm, wonder where he got that idea?], but my classes weren’t like that; we actually spoke in German. (And he said my German was very good.) This is coming spontaneously from a teenager from a culture that is known for speaking bluntly, so I’m sure it was not just polite.
2. A former student stopped by. He was in my class for three years and then moved away (to England). Now he’s in college in Indiana. He said he placed into upper-level German on the placement test but decided to take Spanish because everyone was saying he “needed” to learn Spanish. He was disappointed in his Spanish professors and said they weren’t nearly as good as I was. He also said that with only three years of German he knew the language far better than people who had taken Spanish for ten years knew that language.
Anecdotal evidence, sure, but still valid – and it affirms my efforts here at the end of the school year.
Congrats on those Robert and we want to read more of these from others. Can you imagine the vibe in the room if that German kid were there being ignored by a teacher working a grammar class?
Anyway, y’all, if we have a time to celebrate, it is now, right? As kids who have heart express thanks bc they observed how hard we worked over the past year. Share more!
And Robert, Anne Matava has some heartbreaking stories about how her Hogs were treated by the university intellectuals. Many of us do. And yet, of all the teachers at all the levels, the college instructors are the most out of touch with the research, by far.
I wonder how long they will get away with fooling the 4%ers that they teach. I wonder how long that will continue to go on. I wonder how long it will take for their act to be revealed as nothing but smoke and mirrors. I mean, they are polishing a turd.
Tonight we had the farewell beach bonfire for the visiting German students. While there I was talking to the mother of a former student. He had three years of German at Pacifica, then spent his senior year in Germany on an exchange program living with a German family. As you can imagine, his German is excellent. Yet, his mother told me that he is taking “business German” at university because it is the last conversational course he hasn’t had yet, and he doesn’t want to take the literature classes.
I love German literature, but I understand his hesitation. Most professors love the literature so much that they can’t imagine anyone not wanting to read and analyze it – and often they read and analyze in English. There needs to be a program for students who want to just keep on communicating in the language without “studying the great literature” of the language. I can imagine more of a “book club” approach to reading – just read a book and then discuss what you liked, didn’t like, etc. And anything, including comic books, is fair game for inclusion in the class.
Excellent point. Just as secondary schools are trying to become more “relevant” to their students, universities are still stuck in early 20th century mode. How refreshing it would be to have “Business” language courses or the “book club”–or how about even a sort of “current events” course. My upper-level college classes were quite sparsely populated–this might be a way to interest more students. But–is anyone listening? College language profs are far, far above “four-percenters.” I’d hate to guess the %.
Those literature professors get 4%ers, a new crop each year. But the 4%ers they get can’t discuss the literary texts in the TL, bc of the way they were taught in high school. The college professors must therefore teach in English.
It is a failure of the high school system, the professors would say, that require them to discuss the literature in English. Knowing this fact, one would assume that the university level people would be knocking down the classroom doors of people like Robert and Anne Matava to find out what they are doing to be able to send kids to college ready to discuss literature in the TL.
Alas, they are far too out of touch with the new changes to do that. They fail to understand that they have, as a group, the power to go, for example, to ACTFL in Philadelphia next year and DEMAND changes that would allow them to instruct a system of literature in the language it is written in.
Why carry torches to ACTFL meetings demanding that high school teachers align with current research about how we acquire languages (comprehensible input) when it is easier to complain about the inferiority of the 4% products they are getting? Besides, what would be the reaction of the high school teachers? The conflict would be far too messy, and the public is still fooled, so why destabilize the illusion?
If college professors went to war against the inferiority of the product they are getting, they would lose their status as truly elite*, those who live in the minute percentage of truly rarified air that Lori suggests. They would have to actually do something real for change in their profession and perhaps, in doing so, lose a bit of their status and get a bit dirty. They would have to think and challenge all the received ideas out there. But they are pedants and pedants don’t do things like that.
I did a three year graduate program in French Literature (AbD**) in the 1970s at the University of Rochester. Not one of my classes was in French. It just seems so odd.
*John sent me an article about “elite professionals” which will appear here on Monday.
**I am so thankful for not ever finishing my dissertation at the U of R. I was meant to work at the secondary level, with kids, and my heart would have been crushed at the university level. Plus, my focus was on Carl Jung and 19th c. French poetry and nobody in my building in Rochester, or much in the world, did anything like that. We had to send out for a guy from the University of Buffalo for my orals. A few years later, I was in South Carolina teaching when the entire PhD program at Rochester was dismantled, thus assuring my safety from becoming a pedant. I probably would have ended up as an English speaking French literature snob, going to conferences and talking about shit that nobody really understood in jargon that made no sense but sounded smart. Instead, here I am ending up my run talking about crazy shit and all sorts of insane and wonderful possibilities with a bunch of crazy ass secondary pioneers like you, things that can actually make a difference in the lives of real kids, and not just the elite few of kids. I call that being a real American. What’s not to love? I can see now and humbly appreciate that God made no errors in what my career was to be and how it played out over the years. I suggest to the younger teachers out there who are in that crazy place of wondering if you are in the right profession that, if you have a contract for next year to teach languages to kids, then you are in the right profession. You’ll see how it all fits together later. Don’t worry about it. You are in the right profession. And the kids need you. They need you badly.
This is the perfect thread for me to read right now. I had a MAJOR meltdown yesterday. Oh, I brought it on myself, and I own it. It has been building for awhile and yesterday I simply snapped. Fortunately I was done with my teaching day so nobody had to witness it, except thankfully, my dear husband who was there to pick up the pieces.
Anyway, the triggers were the students who still don’t get what we have been doing, who dig their heels in and ask questions like “Is the exam going to be as lax as it was last year?” Lax? Really? I didn’t have a response for that. And others who state on their self-assessments, “I didn’t contribute ideas to the stories because I don’t like creating things.”
So, because of my recent lack of sleep and the constant thrum of these thoughts that I allowed to consume me, I caved in yesterday and told the kids I would type up a list of all the words we had on the wall for them to study. WTF????? Then promptly wound myself right up because this goes against everything we’ve done all year! And I don’t have time to add this to my weekend workload.
Fortunately I slept 9 hours last night, woke up and wrote them an e mail telling them I will not type up a list, and if they need something concrete to study, they can work with the stories and songs, as there is plenty of language for them to work with. They all have copies of all the class stories from the year, in addition to some sheets of song lyrics. No, I was not that sarcastic in the note, and I also took the opportunity to remind them that while they may not “feel” like they “worked hard,” that they certainly did by being in class day after day engaging in another language being spoken. exclusively.
Anyway, I like reading stories about kids who realize later on how they can actually use their languages in the real world. Makes me hopeful. I have to QTIP, especially at this time of year when everyone is cranky. And even if the kids can’t acknowledge their gains right now, I sure can see them! So there’s that 🙂
These kids’ comments will help me to craft a kickass classroom procedure / norming for next fall with rules and consequences stated clearly on posters. I was just constantly adjusting this year and trying too many things at once, so I see the many errors I made. Such a process! Sheesh, no wonder I am exhausted!
On a very related note, here is something I noticed recently or maybe realized in retrospect…the kids who refuse to signal are often the same kids who complain that the pace of the class is too slow. I see a direct correlation. They are not signaling that they haven’t understood, so when I call on them and they can’t answer, then they admit they didn’t understand because they were trying to figure it out on their own …all of this takes way more time than if they would have signaled in the first place. Sort of a paradox: admit you don’t get it, so we can clear it up and keep going.
They won’t admit it. The class and those kids’ particular learning style (mental analysis in the left hemisphere) don’t mix. You are exhausted because their parents tell them that your exams lack rigor and they take that in to your classroom.
They talk about it in the cafeteria. They unite against the change that you require, which is moving the playing field of learning to the whole brain, relying principally on the right brain. For them, this is a disaster and it is human nature, when faced with change, simply to reject it and blame the person bringing the change.
I feel a strong kinship with you jen and I think I speak for many others as we have gotten to know your special brand of honesty in sharing your professional experience as a teacher with us. We resonate with what you say bc your level of honesty, which is again reflected in what you say above, and is very high and very unique.
It’s almost as if, in the saying of it, in the expression of how emotionally painful it is, you let it go right there in the comment field. That is very healthy and, I am beginning to see, a very important part of the function of our group, the bitching and kvetching part, since we can’t do it anywhere else.
I am completely with you on the norming the class next year. Except for the two conferences I have this summer, and the writing team I am on which ends next week, I am going to rest a lot, but also plan on really having all the posters and beginning of the year stuff up in totally clear fashion.
Like you say, jen, it is super important that we kick these little wiseacres butts in the beginning of the year so that we don’t have to end the year with this kind of crap. If that means hitting the parent phone calls hard with patient explanations to parents that their child is going to fail if they don’t fricking FIND THE RIGHT PART OF THEIR BRAIN, LITERALLY, then so be it. We get on the phone.
The message to those parents is, “Please don’t oppose me just listen to what I say about current research and either buy into it or go to my principal bc I refuse to spend the year watching your spoiled little Fauntleroy sit there in class and judge me when they don’t know what the hell they are judging.
And I am convinced (another discussion) that we don’t do near enough in getting certain of those kids the hell OUT OF OUR CLASSES EARLY ENOUGH. We don’t and we should. And we should have the help we need to do that! Those kids can RUIN our classes, and they do every year and here we are about to let them do it again in a few minutes unless we get some determination and fire going in our gut on this particular issue of removing the bad eggs early!
In that sense, the recent discussion brought to us by Andrew and Elizabeth takes on even more importance, not just for them as they basically fight for their jobs but also as a resource to us to refer to in the beginning of the year for arguments to take to the parents behind the jabs and claws and thorns swiped in our direction by their clueless children. For that reaosn, I will go mark that series of articles (“Immediate Attention Needed”) under the Beginning the Year category just to make sure that we have that extra ammunition.
One thing we have to do, jen, and this includes anyone else who doesn’t want to end their year being poked at with snide comments from children like jen was last week, is be on our guard and very active with those little shit kids so that, by the end of September, we have re-educated their parents to a sufficient degree so that we don’t have to deal with that kind of bullshit all year.
I used the three questions with my four groups of students this last week. It was a sad time for me, because there is little chance that I’ll see them again, though I may be called on as a substitute from time to time. The most frequent answer to what helped the most was translating the movie subtitles, although a few said that was what helped the least. Those few said that what helped the most was translating/reading the embedded texts that I made as summaries of the important scenes. I think that those who felt that reading the subtitles wasn’t helpful were the students who were able to do it without any help, whereas most of my students were very weak and needed help to decode the subtitles.
*Note that in France, translation in class is theoretically forbidden. Students are supposed to figure everything out by themselves with teachers giving hints and nudging them in the right direction, all in 100% TL. What is funny is that the teachers who are shocked at the idea of using translation in class are perfectly willing to spend most of the hour explaining grammar in French.
I was disappointed that instead of saying what helped the least, most of my students said that everything helped. Then I reread Bob’s original post and saw that his students had said the same thing. And when I asked what to change for next year, most of them said to change nothing. A few said not to stop the film so often. I’ve been going by gut feeling, stopping whenever I wanted to be sure they understood, but I’ve started letting it flow between major scenes and letting them ask me to stop when they need an explanation. Also, this is something I can use for leverage, saying that by being attentive and concentrated for x minutes, they earn points towards a session with no stops. Watching the movie without stopping is their PAT. So here I have these kids that were failing English begging me to let them watch a movie in English with English subtitles and if they’re very good I let them. :-)))
(Several asked if they would have me next year and I explained that I’m retiring. One boy said, “Then we were really lucky to have had you this year!” )
For Andrew and Elizabeth, I’ve had snide students in the past, that I didn’t get through to, but I now realize that it was neither their fault nor mine. In the French system the 4%ers are not in an AP class where everybody’s a 4%er. They’re in a class where there are also students who have to struggle to understand the simplest phrase and feel stupid when their comrades ace all the tests. Talk about affective filters! By taking those students as my barometers, I upset quite a few “good” students who could care less about those who were failing. They wanted grammar, the more complex the better, and I was working on “went to, wanted and looked like …. ” When I think of them now, I’m sad for them. The best student in the class, a boy whose family had taken him on many trips abroad and whose English was excellent, cheated on my final exam. I caught him red-handed, looking up vocabulary on his I-phone. Why? I know he could have had a decent grade without cheating, and can only suppose that he did it to get the best possible grade and raise his overall average. I suppose he may wind up being a whiz on Wall Street some day.
I’m going to miss my ugly ducklings.
Dearest Judy,
I don’t know what you have planned for your retirement, but if you feel at all lead to support the TPRS/CI community, we welcome you with open arms!!!!!!!!!! Your insight and eloquence help us all and you have so much to share!!!
with love,
Laurie
Yeah this is kind of serious feeling. We need to organize a party and fly over and surprise you. People don’t retire every day and I have always thought that the celebration should be heartfelt and last for three days. One way to put it in perspective is to figure out about how many classes you taught. It is sobering. Because, as many of us know, those who will admit it, there is a little element of fear in each moment of teaching. So multiply the amount of classes taught by the number of minutes with that little fear gremlin in there, and you have a tableau of striking drama, at that inner level. At least that has been my own experience. Trying to learn to relax and trust. Getting proof every day that I really am o.k. and that everything is going to be all right, each class providing a little more practice at relaxing and trusting. Fighting through the Monday mornings and the crazy kid/parent experiences that all must come our way as part of the profession. Wow. Anyway, Judy, congratulations!. We are most proud to call you colleague.
These three questions are at the end of the survey that Grant shared with us.
1. What have we done this year that helped you learn Spanish? This response is representative of my seniors: “Spanish in Spanish 99% of the time has made me get a much better understanding.”
3. If you could have changed one thing…? This was a surprise. Several said, “more time on verbs/conjugations.” I had some tables to give them: 1) full conjugation of hablar w/English meanings, 2) full conjugation of comer w/ English meanings, and 3) a derivation chart. Between these and the invitation to email me any time they had a grammar question in the future, they seemed to be content.
Thanks for the repost Ben.
Love that “sneeze the English translation” idea, and will try and remember to use it next year or perhaps even at iFLT.