Unlock with PatreonThe Problem with CI
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12 thoughts on “Question”
Actually Michael’s stuff is still aligned with TPRS and that is not the direction of this site. Just sayin’. Rather, this site is moving in the direction of non-targeted comprehensible input after ten years of alignment with TPRS.
So David can you ask really specific questions? Then we can answer specifically. One thing I can say is that spelling just doesn’t matter early on, at least in my opinion.
Also another thing David is that we no longer prepare classes, at least the way I do it. I think those five years off recently will need to have some holes filled in for you since (for me at least), TPRS doesn’t work. I don’t think too many readers here do TPRS in the form you were doing it six years ago before you took your break from it. Trying to explain the changes in a few comment fields certainly is too much of a task to attempt here, so I’m not sure what to say.
OK, I was suspicious of feeling like Swiss Cheese (…holes, gaps in knowledge). I’ve had success using Miller’s German materials within the TPRS framework. I would like to move towards building a CI classroom. I started back up using TPRS because this is what I knew, and it was at least better than the “fill in the blanks” and “grammar drilling” the rest of my department pushed for (through reproach and bitchiness, yuck).
I realize that TCI and TPRS are not the same thing, but I thought the PLC was for teachers using CI (targeted or not) and that TPRS was an example of providing CI (albeit targeted), at least that’s what I understood from Robert Harrell’s primer. I would love to teach with non-targeted CI. This is a challenge with my district forcing all language teachers to follow a curriculum sequence and compare data at the end of each unit (can you hear me vomiting?). I may have to get around that by using targeted CI since all I get is crickets and hostility when bringing up CI. Where do you recommend getting solid foundational training on CI? I was looking at attending workshops at iFLT 2018 to start.
So David what I understand is that you know about TPRS but can’t use it in your department unless it is targeted, so in order to align with the department curriculum and assessment model in place there, you use Michael’s materials. It’s definitely a plan done by 98% of the people who say they “do” TPRS.
Personally, however, my own experience (which is all I can share) is that I could never make TPRS and targeting align with any set curriculum. It just didn’t work and it was incredibly frustrating and I tried it for 15 years. To read why, read the Hit List post – find it in the categories.
For me, trying to make the vastness of the language fit into any sort of curriculum was like trying to fit a 14,000 pound elephant (they weigh that much – I looked it up) into a car. It can’t be done. That is in fact the main reason I left TPRS and why I am slowly trying to move the discussion here on my PLC to be fully devoted to non-targeted discussion. It’s not going very well, but I am determined.
So what can you do? The ten years of posts on TPRS here is loaded with information. Also, I will send you a book, the last one I wrote on TPRS. It is called the Big CI book. If anyone else here wants it, just email me and I will send the ebook to you at no charge. It will be VERY useful to you if you want to to use TPRS and the targeted method. It’s the best of the five books I have written on TPRS.
Here on the PLC for those interested, the new non-targeted appraoch will be the main focus of discussion as we move forward, along with all the usual super-important topics of (1) mental health, (2) classroom management and (3) community building, which transcend the NT vs. targeted discussion and could be said to be the most important areas of discussion here over the years.
So honestly ask yourself if you think you can bridge the gap and use TPRS to align w your department’s demands of you. If the answer is yes, then I do suggest that you go to a summer conference on that topic.
Why couldn’t I do it? Who knows, but I think the answer lies in the fact that it was too boring as per the Hit List article I refer to above. But that’s just me.
PLEASE keep us current on how this moves forward. You are not alone, for sure. I for one will be very interested to see how this progresses.
I went to a StoryListening workshop and there they said that they wrote the words in L2 at the very beginning, even with first graders.
Hi David,
It can seem daunting to get back into something when you’ve been out for a while. Your understanding has stayed pretty much the same while everything has changed and evolved.
Welcome to culture shock.
Ben’s focus has also evolved, and he is championing untargeted / non-targeted CI. So, in that sense, the current blog articles will not help you jump in right where you were.
However, it’s all about movement, direction, and teachability. Even picking up TPRS where it was six years ago is – as you noted – so much better than any grammar-driven, fill in the blanks, drill-and-kill curriculum.
My suggestions for you:
1. Pick up where you were
2. Read the primers and older material to bolster your knowledge and confidence
3. Read newer threads to start getting a sense of where things are now in the PLC
4. Go to a conference or workshop; it will either help refresh your skills or introduce you to newer skills and ideas. iFLT is a good one to go to for refreshing older skills; Tina and Ben’s workshops are great for exposure to the newer skills and the ideas surrounding non-targeted CI.
5. Expect to feel a disjunct between what you were doing and what everyone is talking about now.
6. Try to get exposure to MovieTalk and Story Listening as ways to help you bridge the gap between what you are doing and where you want to go.
I used Michael Miller’s materials for several years and found them ultimately too restrictive. I also never had students guess at spelling because they always made guesses based on English orthography – and besides, they guess on their own without my prompting. Still, I think you can get good ideas from them; I found that I did better with PQA than with all the mini-stories. A lot of my class is based on just hanging out and talking while I provide students with words they need to stay in German.
Hope this helps.
Hi Robert, thank you. Yes, that does help. That’s essentially what I’m doing. I don’t follow Sabine & Michael exactly. I focus more on talking with the students, creating stories together, etc. And I used the serialized story to help it gel together. The readers that go with it help focus on words the can immediately understand and we have some great discussions from that. I’m enjoying it. I recently discovered MovieTalk and plan to get that going.
Hi David! I can’t offer any advice on TPRS in the traditional sense. I only started teaching this way in August and all of my training has been with Ben and Tina in the non-targeted field. I can tell you how amazing their work is and how much students gain in terms of language with non-targeted CI. Their book A Natural Approach to the Year is fabulous. I just finished doing all my curriculum documentation using their framework for the year. The best part is that we have so much fun together! As Ben can attest to, I teach children of highly educated, very involved parents. All of them were so pleased at their child’s language gains a couple weeks ago at student-led conferences. Even if they don’t understand the why, they can see for themselves the results. And my MS students articulated so beautifully how they were learning and how much they’d learned. They were so proud of themselves!
Is there any way you can get out of the end-of-unit check-ins and get them to shift to an end-of semester check-in? While none are ideal, maybe you could take a more non-targeted approach if you could make a shift away from the textbook units. I’m just trying to think of workarounds.
Dana,
Thank you for your input! Unfortunately, any attempt I’ve made to inform the curriculum committee (they’re rewriting it now) on the incongruency of comprehensible input and an agenda of fixed content units has fallen on deaf ears. Each person involved just fiercely defends their position, and that’s from the top down. It’s sad. So… TPRS is the way I’ve tried to solve the forced sequence of topics, with some personal success. I mean, my students are engaged and responding positively to it. But I know it could be a lot better if the restrictions were removed.
Thank you for all the input. Non-targeted CI is a great direction. In an effort to bring myself up to speed I found this PLC by doing a search on TPRS and CI. Did the PLC recently make a shift to discussing only non-targeted CI? I only joined 2 months ago. The landing page had/has TPRS and CI training on it so I’m confused. If this isn’t the place to have those discussions, can someone recommend a PLC? Our district has a pretty strong PLC agenda, so I was granted permission to step away from the world language department PLC (3 days a week discussing “traditional” nonsense) to this PLC. So I’m sort of in an awkward position since my principal supported me by purchasing the membership to that end.
Hi David. That is an awkward position to be in. I would check out facebook’s IFLT group or get curriculum that IS targeted. I believe that Martina Bex has something. TPRS usually uses readers that target certain structures.
To be honest– and that is the power of this PLC– I would get some TPRS curriculum and make each test super easy for a mini-story and create compelling questions with that curriculum an still go as Nontargeted as I could. I would then fudge the grades on the exams or make those 10% of the grade in class. I would use the interpersonal rubric found here ( and on CI Lift off Facebook Group files) to grade my students.
Best of Luck!
I got into TPRS via Susan Gross’s DVDs which fascinated me but when I brought up the courage to do a story,, the first time with a lot of circling I felt so awkward and shackled that I was greatly relieved when I discovered that Ben and his PLC-members had gone onto Non-targeted CI which in my opinion perferctly aligns with the research done by Stephen Krashen and Bill VanPatten.