Unlock with PatreonThe Problem with CI
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21 thoughts on “Question”
I think he’s telling you what we know about how language is acquired. An aural message in a foreign language is hard to hold onto in our heads when we hear it, to process it, to decide what it means in the context in which one hears it, and, then, to remember it. That’s why those messages need to be very clear, slow-w-w-w, repeated (a million times), and checked on for understanding many, many times. We know that when we see a message, as opposed to hear a message, we have more time to hold on to it, process it, decide what it means, etc. That is MUCH harder to do when we hear it–which is why we need to hear it about a million more times while understanding its meaning. His perception is likely a tad distorted–especially if he’s doing ok on your quizzes, but the “feeling” he has is true. I would listen to him and go more slowly, not moving on to new structures until students have confidence with the ones you’re working on. Congratulate him on his noticing the difference between the aural work and the reading work of acquisition. Have him be your barometer student for the next week checking in with him as many times as needed to make certain what you are delivering orally is really being comprehended.
What Jody said. :o)
with love,
Laurie
Will doing some ROA help? Having the visual story to support the aural CI?
I think Jody is right on with this. Just one more thing: be sure to thank him for helping you be a better teacher.
ROA? What’s that one again?
Reading Option A – what you do with a class story.
Do you do TPR? If you do TPR, when you say the words, do the motion yourself. This slows you down and gives students a visual every time they hear it.
It’s my student…thanks everyone, for the advice. I know I need to slow down more, but I get such bored looks from so many students that I feel like I need to move on. And I don’t feel like I’m very good at going with the flow and personalizing what we’re talking about.
I’ve had a few great moments in this first week and a half of school (I heard “Spanish is awesome” a couple of times) but now I’m running out of steam and I heard “I hate Spanish” from one kid in 2nd period. I stopped class a minute and reminded them about doing they’re 50% and how comments like that make it hard for the teacher to keep teaching. I thought it would go really well because I was doing “has/wants/gives” with candy and anticipated it being more fun for them. Dreading the rest of the day – my other Sp I classes are smaller and are less engaged normally.
They’re getting lots of vocab, but they’re getting bored. I’m so new at this…guess I need to spend some time planning this weekend and have a better plan for next week.
Just venting right now…thanks for “listening.”
~Robyn
*their (my brain is too tired to even spell right in English, let alone Spanish.) 🙂
I stopped getting that line when I started TPRS but kids *do* get bored of stories. Novels, movietalk, culture stuff (even if it is in English), writing, etc, all good. Kids often getntiredof the intense mental focus required in watching andnlistening– it’s hard!– so varying to include silent work and reading helps.
If I get a hater– one over the last 3 years– I talk to them privately to figure out the problem. Smetimes you just have to say “suck it up, muffin, anything worth doing requires work.”
Chris
Warning – this comment is in the form of a rant:
Robyn you really need to turn the tables on them. That is what you need to do. You need to get the energy to where the students stop judging the method of instruction (if the teacher likes it, then they don’t want it, is what they have learned) and get them playing defense where if they do not listen to you, there are serious repercussions on their grade, which in high schools are the primary motivating force in learning.
I have already mentioned the need for strict enforcement of the Classroom Rules (see posters page on this site) as well as strong use of jGR – the interpersonal communication skills rubric – as key in getting them to focus on the message and not on how good or bad or fun or boring or different the instruction is. There is also this:
https://benslavic.com/blog/pqa-bis/
https://benslavic.com/blog/psa-2/
And I might add that these students are children, even if they have bodies that are adult size, they are mentally children and we need to keep that in mind. They do not know about ways to acquire a language. Other teachers in the building have in the past or are still getting away with teaching in a way that is a disaster, but they get away with it because it fits the school model of testing and memorizing and all that. But the bottom line is that they are lucky to have a teacher who wants to speak to them in the language. So you said you haven’t thrown the cards in yet on CI and that is good. Many people do. It’s because, and this is the point I’m trying to make in this comment, is that you absolutely must:
1. make yourself comprehensible by going slowly enough and getting enough reps for clarity
2. turn the tables on them, so that they HAVE TO understand what you are saying.
So I would like to identify seven things that you absolutely must do in every class period next week at this super-crucial moment of the year in winning the battle against those horrible negative elemenst in your classroom who are not giving you a chance:
1. SLOW, staying in bounds, making yourself comprehensible
2. Simplicity – there is an entire category on this that you may want to read around in. I am talking about working up only one sentence in the class, and stuff like that.
3. enforcement of the Classroom Rules
4. enforcement of jGR
5. Personalized Statements and Answers as described in the two links given above – Don’t ask, tell! – make up stuff about the rude ones in front of the class that puts them on the defensive. (“Yes, class, Roger does sing when he is afraid!”) Roger has to listen! He has to get involved. You get him involved by talking about him in class, making up stuff that makes him scramble to understand why people are chuckling when you speak in the TL and his name is in the sentence. He deserves no less. He needs to know who is in charge of the classroom. It is his teen job to try to throw you off; it is your adult job to hand his ass to him on a platter in front of the class via low grades because he won’t listen, via PSA, via parent phone calls home, parent meetings, via stopping class each time he breaks one of the rules as Greg Stout described so well a few weeks ago here:
https://benslavic.com/blog/address-behavior-first-you-wont-get-another-chance/
6. the Quick Quizzes
7. phone calls home on every comment in which disrespect is shown, to get the kid out of there. And if you get confronted by a parent who is hearing only their child’s side, immediately ask for a meeting and be ready with all the stuff from the Primer hard linke above and the Administrator/Teacher/Parent re-education category to the right of this page because I think it a glorious thing that teachers are now able to stand up to dumb ass admins and parents and students with some real facts about how people actually acquire languages. Now is primarily the time of year when those confrontational conversations happen and I personally would give anything to be a fly on the wall in some of them, because in those conversations where you defend and illustrate the Three Modes and the 90% Position Statements to parents, those fear filled meetings are paving the way for a new day in second language acquisition even in the face of the fear and the sleepless nights before the meeting. I am so proud to be working with game changers and not wimps whose instructional feet are still stuck in the past century.
We haven’t mentioned the quizzes yet, but we must. They are such a big part of the discipline equation. I would suggest this with the quizzes:
Do some PQA in a very simple way and then as soon as your quiz writer has five or ten or however many questions you like to ask on your quizzes, and I am talking as early as ten or fifteen minutes into the class, bam you spring that first quiz on them. Then you collect it. You have weakened the passive aggression of the kids who don’t know how/don’t want to play. You have shifted the balance of power in giving that first unexpected quiz. The kid who sits in the class with a t-shirt that says, “I’m Not Buying This Crap” immediately must buy it, because you WILL CALL THE PARENT when it turns out after six of these quizzes (two per day) and explain that you teach in a way that doesn’t require memorization, because we don’t learn languages by memorizing them but by listening to them over and over, and that your hands are tied because the national standards require that you speak to your students in the language at least 90% of the time and that standards based grading, which is when you grade their child on what they can do and not on the results of tests (they should be able to listen to you and understand you), and so – sorry for the run on – you really have no choice but to demand that the child either change their behavior or drop the class.
And that brings us to phone calls home. How many have you made? Did you call home on the “I hate Spanish” comment? If you didn’t invite the parents to advise the child to drop the class that day, then that was an error on your part.
I’m just thinking of things to say to you here. I find it infuriating that a teacher who is trying to bring something new to the morgue like atmospheres of most f.l. classrooms, to bring some life into what is a dead system, must bear these kinds of insults from children who just don’t know. At least you are trying.
And get some training. Be aggressive about that. I am amazed at how many people have contacted me with like one week before school with no conferences attended, not really any training at all, but ready to go in and try TPRS this year. It doesn’t work that way. We don’t get to play professional baseball by deciding to try out for the team one week before the tryouts. That is why I want to push regional trainings throughout the year and use this site to promote teachers getting together. Today I put a Mandarin teacher in Berkeley, CA in touch with John Piazza. That one email made my entire day. Because when we start meeting together in small groups and not waiting for a national conference in the summer, which is so time consuming not to mention costly, there will be no stopping us. We will enter each year prepared. That’s what we need, more collaboration on regional levels. OK rant over.
Now I just want to copy verbatim what Melissa said today. I think it was brilliant, what she did:
…I stopped class and asked each one to write a couple of sentences telling me what their goal was in the class. I read them after school and found that all but 2 said understanding and speaking the language. The other 2 were a little negative.
The next day I started class normal until about halfway through the class. Then I pulled a chair up and said that I wanted to confess something. I told them that they had the same desire for the language as I had for them. I told them a little about my history learning languages. I majored in French in college and minored in Spanish. When I had graduated, I couldn’t speak either and was so sad because it was something that I wanted so bad. I had done everything that I was supposed to do and still couldn’t use it except for reading. Then 2 years ago I found a way for my students not to have the same outcome as I did. I told them that I was still rather new at this way of teaching but that I would not give up because I want them to find and love the language and be able to use it in a real way. The next day I felt a change and the last 3 days they have been with me every step of the way. I don’t think that this is the way for all classes but I believe it was what they needed. Of course in the long run this may have been the wrong thing to do. I just don’t know.
Had I not asked for each to write their goal down and see that they were thinking the same way as I was, I might have felt that the majority was negative which it wasn’t….
It is difficult in cyberspace to get to the deeper issues here, Robyn. I wish we could though, because I don’t believe there is even one of us in this group who has not felt exactly as you feel right now. We get this work, we think about it, but then we have trouble executing it in spite of our high hopes.
Who has not heard some snot ass kid say that they hate our classes? That comes with the job, really, and I know it is hard to accept but the truth is that that comment is ENTIRELY that kid’s problem.
I don’t know. This whole PLC exists to help teachers avoid what you are going through right now. As I said to Philip last week, it’s not about planning more. I wish I knew what to say. We do have the information here, in droves, to help you get your feet on more solid ground. My hunch is that you are just going too fast and somehow in your body language and overall delivery are sending the message to the kids that you want this to work too much. If that makes sense.
Maybe read in the Mental Health category, in the Slow category, and definitely in the jGR category. Some of those rude kids need a good slap of a jGR grade up side their heads, honestly. Right now they are on the offensive but jGR will flat put them on the defensive, where they will not be able to get away with any level of rudeness because they will then clearly understand what they owe you in your classroom setting.
I wrote one of my goals for this year is not to fear those bored looks. That bored look makes me go too fast and it makes me personalize less.
I had a girl who used to write “I hate Spanish” in her notebook. That eventually stopped, but it took a while. It was mostly PTSD from a traditional class. ha. She rarely participated, but at least her negativity went away. She had a lot of issues going on outside of school.
If you haven’t tried yet, the Matava and Tripp story scripts are the most compelling I’ve seen. If you try MovieTalk, that may be the novelty your students need.
This is great advice. Slow, jGR, not wanting it to work so much based on me or my effort, but calling students to do their part.
I have a few recalcitrant kids in one of the returning levels… one actually said that he learns by making all kids of side comments in English throughout class in response to what he sees or hears in Chinese. Really? Obviously he didn’t describe it exactly that way. I told him he needed to develop the self-control not to do that. He was embarrassed. Today I’ve been showing my classes the ACTFL 90% target language use statement: http://www.actfl.org/news/position-statements/use-the-target-language-the-classroom I’m also feeding them little bits of SLA principles through quotes once a week, just for a couple minutes.
Reminds me of 2 difficult students at my previous school: one told me, “I learn best through competition” (I’m pretty sure his parents fed him that line). The other announced that, “I learn languages through games.” Neither was true – those were just their preferred activities.
Thank you again for the support. I’m glad I have a three day weekend to regroup and think about all of this. I think it really is deeper issues at work, like you said, Ben. It’s a fear of not being liked, of not doing things perfectly, of failing.
Before 1st period, one of the girls almost came in the room and then she kind of said, “Nah” and went to talk to her friend and I could hear her talking about me standing around awkwardly waiting for class to start and other similar comments. She didn’t want to be in here to endure it, I guess. It’s hard to get fired up for class (traditional with this level -Spanish III- doing exercises with them in the book, etc.) when you know that’s how they feel. And it’s only August 29!!!!
I have to say I’m seeing great things in many ways, so maybe I just need to really focus on those gains. They are learning lots of vocab already and when they do speak I hear a pretty good accent from most of them. I can take some credit for that, right? One student was saying something about learning better this way during Spanish II when we were focusing on “goes to the football game” (who goes? Does he play football? Does she play in the band? Is she a cheerleader? Is he going to watch? etc.) I couldn’t tell if he was serious or not, but I didn’t ask – I just chose to believe that he was sincere.
I will keep doing this, but it’s pretty uncomfortable right now. I’m not ready to bail, but I’m starting to sink…so what else is there to do but bail? 🙂
Hanging in there,
~Robyn
I had a couple of students that were distracting class for 5 days in a row. I finally called home and tried to explain the type of focus that it took to acquire a language. That made a huge positive difference on the 6th day.
That 5th day, before calling home, as we were singing a song I turned around and the majority was doing nothing. I instantly felt defeated. I stopped class and asked each one to write a couple of sentences telling me what their goal was in the class. I read them after school and found that all but 2 said understanding and speaking the language. The other 2 were a little negative.
The next day I started class normal until about halfway through the class. Then I pulled a chair up and said that I wanted to confess something. I told them that they had the same desire for the language as I had for them. I told them a little about my history learning languages. I majored in French in college and minored in Spanish. When I had graduated, I couldn’t speak either and was so sad because it was something that I wanted so bad. I had done everything that I was supposed to do and still couldn’t use it except for reading. Then 2 years ago I found a way for my students not to have the same outcome as I did. I told them that I was still rather new at this way of teaching but that I would not give up because I want them to find and love the language and be able to use it in a real way. The next day I felt a change and the last 3 days they have been with me every step of the way. I don’t think that this is the way for all classes but I believe it was what they needed. Of course in the long run this may have been the wrong thing to do. I just don’t know.
Had I not asked for each to write their goal down and see that they were thinking the same way as I was, I might have felt that the majority was negative which it wasn’t. This gave the power back to the quiet students that were not disrupting and I hope keeps the negative ones quiet until I have had time to try and win them over.
I hope that this continues with this class. It can be really hard especially when you are new but I know that this is the way and I guess my stubborn streak won’t allow me to go back. Give yourself a break and rest and then start again.
OK this is where I have to call bullshit on the songs. So many teachers play songs when they are incomprehensible. What can the students be expected to do? On most songs it would take at least a week to make the song comprehensible. If you are willing to first teach every line of a song, targeting the key structures and working with the song for at least a week, reading, doing all of the stuff we do in the Three Steps, then fine play the song when they can understand it. But not before.
I do think that this class stoppage move described below was a brilliant move. You spoke your truth to them. I highly support your choice to speak to them in this way:
…I pulled a chair up and said that I wanted to confess something. I told them that they had the same desire for the language as I had for them. I told them a little about my history learning languages. I majored in French in college and minored in Spanish. When I had graduated, I couldn’t speak either and was so sad because it was something that I wanted so bad. I had done everything that I was supposed to do and still couldn’t use it except for reading. Then 2 years ago I found a way for my students not to have the same outcome as I did. I told them that I was still rather new at this way of teaching but that I would not give up because I want them to find and love the language and be able to use it in a real way. The next day I felt a change….
Many of us who attended either iFLT, NTPRS, or both this summer have a great experience there because we are surrounded by loving, caring, interested people who generally ooh and ahh at everything we do – even when we don’t know what we are doing!!
From the coaching rooms to the sessions, to the teacher talk everyone is focused on the same goals – getting better at what we do for the sake of our kids. Then we go back to the reality of the kiddos who may not be feeling the same exited, wanting to share, thirsty to learn vibe that we bring to what we do.
We all have experienced what Robyn is going through and I am glad it’s a discussion topic! Piedad Gutierrez shared the other night that she feels our fatigue level and theirs have a big impact on the energy level of our classes – hence the difference for me last year between French 2. period 5 and French 2, period 7!
If it’s not a mental health issue now, left untreated, this dynamic will become one! There has to be an answer. I always vote for music when the going gets tough.
I think the kinds of comments you are talking about from kids should be purged from all our minds. They don’t know what they are saying and they dislike being in school for many reasons. It’s not personal and they don’t know how to express themselves properly.
I use to be scared of bored looks too, but I made a lot of progress this week. Today I looked my “tough” class in the eyes. Turned my head slowly from kid to kid and firmly rested my hands on my knees (I sit in front of them on top of a desk) making eye contact. I need to do that more. I also will expel our little intruder in a certain class on Monday – expel forever :). That’s my promise to myself.
An arabic proverb: Pleasing people is an impossible task.
Wise, Leah, very wise!
Chill
OK I know that Leah is relatively new to this group but she now has my total respect. Any teacher who can do what she did today is going to be successful. This line right here is one of the best I have ever read here and that includes nearly eight years of online discussion:
…today I looked my “tough” class in the eyes. Turned my head slowly from kid to kid and firmly rested my hands on my knees (I sit in front of them on top of a desk) making eye contact….
BAM!