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jGR – How Much Weight Should it Get? A Suggestion
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57 thoughts on “jGR – How Much Weight Should it Get? A Suggestion”
The difference between jGR as a management tool and participation as a management tool is that we can tie jGR to national and state standards and the priority of the interpersonal mode. Participation may include did you bring your notebook, HW, and pencil to class. jGR tells them to put those things away so that we can talk in the target language, in which we define “talk” as doing one’s part in the conversation.
Given that acquisition comes only through comprehensible input and initially through oral comprehensible, a high jGR mark recognizes the child who has set himself up for CI and eventual output.
As a consequence of enforcing jGR we do see that misbehavior is decreased as we channel energy into the interpersonal mode. The participation grade may also result redirecting energy from misbehavior. But it is not so clearly a CI-informed pedagogical tool. “Clear eyes” and “listening with the intent to understand” may easily take a back seat to enforcing “pencil-packing” and “pre-mature output.
Given that jGR is training for playing one’s role in output as it arises and setting up for CI throughout the journey, it obviously merits a greater percentage of the grade than participation.
Ben, I’m finding the emphasis on jGR so important. Thanks. And Nathaniel, well put! Especially,
“The difference between jGR as a management tool and participation as a management tool is that we can tie jGR to national and state standards and the priority of the interpersonal mode.”
jGR, or ICSR, is tied to national ACTFL standards. It’s hard to argue against that.
I’m happy to announce that I’ve convinced the admin at my new school to go with 65% for my jGR, or ICSR, grade starting quarter 2. This is great news for me! I’m sure that my admin agreed to it because I literally overwhelmed them, week after week since August, with information taken from ideas expressed here by Ben and members of this blog about Krashen’s research and comprehensible input. I sounded like I knew my shit. Thank you!
Well done. Being 6’2 probably didn’t hurt.
Now all I have to do is start using the more official sounding term ICSR more often. I just can’t stop thinking of it as jGR because after Robert and I had knocked the idea around for months jen is the one who framed it in rubric form so that’s what it is to me – jen’s Great Rubric.
ICSR. ICRS. I can do this. These days, if it doesn’t sound official it can’t be any good. Such a world we live in!
20 years from now I’ll proudly say that I used to call it jGR with Ben and Robert and Jen!
That jen came up with the actual rubric, Sean, after all she’s been through, makes it very hard for me to start calling it ISR. That term jGR is from our childhoods, with all those pleasant memories of crafting it here together over the years. But now we’re growing up. Not such a bad thing, I guess. But the term jGR rolls off my tongue like poetry. It’s us, one of our best moments that lasted three years in the making. jGR. I just like typing it.
I’m going to make jGR 100% of the grade in my gradebook this year. It is posted on butcher paper, large and readable from anywhere in the room, above the whiteboard at the front of the class.
I’m doing this because I can, and because I think it’s really the only thing that I’m willing to put a grade on. A grade that will affect children’s lives in a profound way…it’s the only thing that is fair in my mind.
Question: If you could, would you make it 100% of your grade? What do you think?
I will do it too! 🙂
You have just inspired me. You do it and I’ll do it and we can compare notes.
LOVE
Badass personified.
Yes I would make it 100% of their grade. I would do so for one predominant reason. Grades are false things in languages. How can we measure what is an unconscious process?
All assessment, all of it, since I agree that it does in fact need to happen in the emotionally toxic waste dumps that we call schools, where the cortisol/stress levels are so extreme, and the kids are suffering on such a deep unspoken level, all assessment must only praise the kids for their efforts and gently redirect when their efforts are misguided.
That is what jGR does. It is the only thing that I know that we have ever discussed here over the years that accurately describes the observable non-verbal behaviors that alone align our instruction with the communication standard.
Darcy you will get some pushback. That is why last week I suggested that 35% of the grade be a combination of quick quizzes, dictees and free writes. Of course, it is unnecessary – any kid getting an 8 on the rubric will be working at a very high level on those three things anyway. But it might avoid a few parent fights, and so be worth it. I did those three things heavily in the first months of the year, to silence the helicopters. After that, after passing the initial grade book testing by admins and parents, no one cares and I make up grades and no one cares. It is not professionally irresponsible of me to make up grades when the grades mean nothing in terms of the research about how we acquire languages. Plus, no one cares.
This is just another example along with syllabi and other docs to submit to admins of how we constantly undermine our mental health in this profession because of fear that is based in our need for approval when just the act of teaching during our classes is enough to break many people and so why can’t we honor that in ourselves? Why cannot we honor the work we are doing without adding to it with traditional things steeped in ritual?
Why we load ourselves up with stress when with this way of teaching we don’t need to is something that I just don’t understand. I applaud you Darcy for doing this. Just consider those first few months of helicopters and whether you want to fight them. If you need ammo for that fight, read anything Robert Harrell wrote on the Primers hard link above or go to his site and learn many wonderful things.
If she gets pushback, so will I. Let’s do this Darcy. I have always thought, “What if?” so let’s find out. What about Abby? Is she going to jump in too?
If it works at my school, which is a parent helipad, it just might work anywhere…
YES!! Thank you, Ben. I think there will be a few discussions with parents (I have all the freshmen…), but admin supports it 100%. Abbey, my colleague (and the only other language teacher in the building) is going to do it too. My superintendent and principle both share the stance that grades don’t serve us or our students, and we wouldn’t give them if we didn’t have to….this is the next closest thing we can do that actually means something. I think with jGR we are giving them an evaluation on their willingness to submit to the process of language acquisition, and that’s the only thing I really feel comfortable doing.
GET IT.
And thank YOU, Tina! You’re so amazing and I’m super stoked that you’re going to do it too and that we can go compare notes at Hair of the Dog or Base Camp or ExNovo or…. 🙂
Yay! Inspiration! Change!
Yeah, I am super into this now. Wow, look what you did to me. You liberated me with your bravery and daring. Who am I kidding? Your total badasserie as Ben said.
Anywhere with Total Domination on draft, I am THERE.
And Abby too. Need me some more Abby. She is high octane.
Well said Darcy. You are going to make a fantastic administrator when you go to the ‘dark side’ as you jokingly put it!
You gals are badass! Well said Ben. I’m a little tentative so I am going to do the 65% and 35% . Regardless I am looking forward to seeing how this works out for all of us and have been pouring over all the Robert Harrell articles in the Primer section. Robert really is helping me feel comfortable especially on terms of how to explain the beast. Great models of what to say to anybody who asks from kid to parent to admin. Look forward to meeting up with all of you at the Comprehensible Columbia Gorge and Portland groups as well.
Ooh, Comprehensible Columbia Gorge and Comprehensible Mid-Valley…sounds awesome! You guys in Hood River and Russ and Dana and Sally down in Silverton and Corvallis! You know we are planning a conference next June. We have the church reserved for June 21-22. Might change, who knows, but right now that is the plan. We gotta catch up with those Comprehensible Midwest people! Comprehensible Everywhere! That could be our eventual national group. 🙂
Oh YEAH! I have always said this to myself in my own mind…100% of the grade! I’m in too…will test it out here in lil’ ol’ Franklin NH “the smallest and poorest city in the state.” Yes that is the label that is F-town and i have all sorts of issues with labeling as you all know.
The kids and parents who are the heart of this town have way more beauty and pride than the label smacked onto them reveals. The 100% on this rubric assessment grade whatever…might be one key to unlock some of the rigid thinking. Hm. Or it will land me in a world of controversy. Oh well. I will need to make up a curriculum, but I think I can do that. What will NEASC say? Do I care? Um, no. But I will have to answer to my colleagues on the curriculum committee.
Honestly, when I make up the grades, what is playing in the video of my mind IS the interactive / interpersonal PROCESS. This rubric which by the way I did not invent but merely played one role in its development over many years of Robert Harrell and Ben and many other who came before…in my view, is simply a set of descriptors, never ever intended as a judgement or a “carrot and stick” as it has been accused of.
Where are you now? What do you need to help you understand? How are you doing with this piece? What if we focus on x for the next class? It’s a highly personalized adaptable way of helping each student make the most gains from the place where they start. I think one of the mistakes is looking at it as a concrete literal checklist. We have to know our students and use the rubric in a helpful way, not as a weapon. I’ve not used it super “successfully” yet, but I can see its power, especially when paired with the self-reflection. Even in my first year at this school, when I had them self reflect THAT was the entry point into dialog that bursts some of their worldview that they are powerless. I want to emphasize the 50-50 dynamic that is a classroom community.
Last night I went to a potluck…totally optional yet most of our teaching staff was there, probably 95%. I seriously only counted like 2 ppl missing. It was an optional gathering of teachers, all of whom decided to read “Teaching with Poverty in Mind.” It was spectacular energy and included our new principal who is fresh from 14 years in the classroom AT THE SCHOOL. I feel like this is a unique moment and I just have to go for it. Will address any road blocks that come up.
Darcy, can you post a photo? Tina, this is ACTFL-aligned right? I believe I can argue that for the adminZ and NEASC.
Part of my hesitation somewhere is the assumption that I will be asked about the program goals down the line. Last year the level 3 and 4 kids (jr and sr) were difficult to get on board, but that was mainly due to the social unsafety which I have to address front and center. But in strict terms of “language proficiency” these older students were not at a discernibly higher level than my level 1-2 kids because it was obvious they’d never had to interact. They were used to “projects” (aka go home and copy some #$% off the internet and read it out loud as beset you can since you have not ever heard the spoken language). It’s hard work to reinvent the paradigm when the kids are programmed to the mode of “just tell me what I have to do for an A and then I will check out in class and do that work on my own time.”
Oops…off on a tangent. ‘Scuse me.
More relevant question for y’all: my grading requirements are 80% summative 20% formative. I just can’t figure out how this is relevant for SLA, so last year I just put numberZ in boxes until they made sense according to my direct observation. Would love ideas about how to articulate / navigate through the system. We have an ugly (in my opinion) grading system that is both “competency based” and also has the trad. numberZ 90-80=70-60 etc.
Wooo! Thanks Darcy and Tina for busting it wide open!
jen, if your summative task is a story-asking session, similar to what you had been doing throughout the unit, with an accompanying reading and 10 true/false questions, then students that hadn’t been showing those interpersonal skills all year probably won’t for the summative. If you can give a summative multiple times in a quarter, even better. Students knowing what is expected of them on a summative should help them perform on the formative. Oftentimes students don’t know what their summative is going to look like.
I don’t know… just thinking aloud. That’s a tough one.
I know Ray Bauer here in the Chicago area has a similar grading requirement that’s heavy on the summative. I’ll ask him.
Hi Sean,
Curriculum, instruction and assessment should all align the best we can, as Claire had mentioned. So my suggestion is that the formative is just the “practice” for the summative should hold. This means that it can be no different only that it is “official” and you are taking data on everyone. Performance is out of the window. It’s about tracking the compelling messages and questions embedded in the TL. How are students reacting? How are students demonstrating understanding.
You can have:
Student shows a gesture in response
Single word response
Student retells in L1
Student chooses 4 drawings of their favorite scenes from a reading
Student acts ( bonus points for differentiation)
Student does their job (bonus points differentiation)
These are just the ones off the top of my head. I’m sure this PLC can come up with WAY more.
Idea: can you give a list of these out to your students then have work on them throughout the year. Finally for your summative you look out for them and note them on a seating chart.
Then have students complete a reflection in L1 about verbal and non-verbal communication. The metacognitive piece could also impress ADMINZ about growth.
I totally agree with Darcy about making jgr 100% of the grade (or as high as you can get away with).
I also believe that ALL assessment is an exercise in wasting everyone’s time. Both mean assessment or compassionate assessment, SBG assessment or Carnegie assessment: they are all a waste of my energy.
If I truly believe that language is acquired subconsciously then, who am I to judge?
Who am I to judge whose subconscious chose to remember what, when?
Ben wrote: “It (jgr) is the only thing that I know that we have ever discussed here over the years that accurately describes the observable non-verbal behaviors that alone align our instruction with the communication standard.”
I write: to me jgr is the best rubric created since the invention of chocolate ice cream (only hagen daz pls).
Personally I don’t need any other rubric to inform my instruction. I don’t need to do re tells to know how far, far, they are from proficiency, (I do them bc the superstars like to show off and practice, so they are always voluntary), I don’t need to have students do free writes to know that they still need to hear and read, and read and hear for an eternity (I do them bc it quiets them down giving me a break).
So, I say again, that ALL assessment is bogus because I am constantly evaluating where they’re at to inform where I go next and improve my skills.
But we live in the reality of the grade book and the SBG turd.
Yes, I think grades should be a simple pass/fail and I think those standards are total cow manure including the “I can statements”.
After a long time of internal doubt and debate I finally conclude that those in our community of CI practitioners that expect kids to show “what they can do” with the language are WRONG! Those professionals are repeating under the CI-TPRS umbrella what the grammar text book people have been doing all along. In my opinion, they are doing exactly-the-same-thing.
A big-wig TPRS teacher told me recently that they don’t use jgr bc it is not standards based and it is subjective.
I say:
1. jgr is a rubric that guides the student on how to negotiate meaning when their language skills are limited.
2. jgr is not a participation grade. Robert Harrell made that very clear some years ago showing how it is a rigorous academic assessment based on the three modes of communication.
3. How is jgr subjective? If I look at a student and see that he is looking at the floor, not once but all class long, how is this subjective? If I hear “Tommy” giving great ideas that show engagement and comprehension after waiting for his turn, how is this subjective???
4. Jgr is an equal opportunity employer. This is BIG to me. “Tommy” whose father just returned from jail to live in the small trailer with his mother (who works at a convenience store), her boyfriend and little brother, has never had any exposure to a different language or culture. He comes from a family that totally hates school and will probably never do anything with Spanish. However, in class he shows up, looks at the board, at me, gives ideas, etc. etc. Still at the end of the year he cannot remember “he wants”even though he was present in body and mind all along. It would take him probably another entire year to remember “he wants”. Should I assess him with “what he can do” with the language and fail him? Or should I assess him with his effort all year to be an active contributing member of our community? Spanish was the only class he didn’t fail last year and I didn’t just give him his credit, he earned it.
Our school is getting ready for the NEASC inspection. I will do everything needed to comply so that Spanish is not the area holding the school back. It will all be fake. I will create whatever my dept. coordinator wants me to do to show proof of SBG, I’m no less intelligent than they are. I just see reality from a different lens. We also have two new administrators and I don’t know how they feel about jgr yet, but this one I will defend.
Laura we should talk! I am in the same situation, exactly, and have many “Tommys.” I will need help and guidance making the fake documents AND I don’t want to waste my life energy crafting and doubting. Literally want to expend the least amount of time possible. Are you going to TCI Maine? I usually see you up there! Let’s make a plan to connect so we can lighten each others’ load!
Just wow, Laura. Going to school now but I had to say wow! Ben we need a “like” button like on FB. So much wisdom in that post!
“I finally conclude that those in our community of CI practitioners that expect kids to show “what they can do” with the language are WRONG! Those professionals are repeating under the CI-TPRS umbrella what the grammar text book people have been doing all along. In my opinion, they are doing exactly-the-same-thing.”
Wow!
“I also believe that ALL assessment is an exercise in wasting everyone’s time. Both mean assessment or compassionate assessment, SBG assessment or Carnegui assessment: they are all a waste of my energy.
If I truly believe that language is acquired subconsciously then, who am I to judge?
Who am I to judge whose subconscious chose to remember what, when?”
Double wow!
DAMN!!! This HAS to go up on the blog! I mean in one of those squares.
I am new to implementing jGR. It is genuis because of all the reasons you said above Laura.
My only question comes in clarification with: “Attentive but no observable non-verbal responses.”
What does that LOOK like? (this is my favorite question to ask now) I mean how can students be attentive but there not be “no observable non-verbal responses”– A robot? A statue?
Im curious. Is there a “kid friendly” version that when presented is more clear?
I always tell kids to sit as if they are in an interview. Square shoulders, eye contact, leaning slightly forward.
Rhea Heaton and I went over the jGR rubric at breakfast in Portland. She pointed out a few flaws. We are fixing them. Hang on Steve – you are right about that phrase but jGR seems to be getting a fresh look this year for the first time in at least three years. I personally am on fire about the truth in Laura Avila’s statement above. Her response to the person who said that jGR is subjective, some TPRS “expert” (there are none), really strikes me as perfectly true. She is right and the expert is wrong. What Laura says above is very very important. jGR really is what she says it is. If people don’t get that, then they are missing a very clear message from their kids in class. That’s a very bad thing for kids.
I too would love to see a few other indicators of non-verbal responses. I have:
sit up
square shoulders
clear eyes
makes signal when doesn’t understand
performs commands (TPR)
uses gestures to show understanding
I’m very curious to see what Ben and Leah are creating there!
Gestures!! I do them but I have never counted them.
Hi Jen,
I am going to TCI Maine, and it would be great to put our combined energies toward the neasc thingy.
Are you, or any one else, also expected to develop SLOs (student learning objectives) through which your proficiency as a teacher will be rated?
This is what the Maine DOE has come up with now to tie a teacher’s job to student outcomes. It is long, complicated and dangerous. And the union supports it!!!
my e-mail: vrksasanauna@yahoo.com
Hi, Laura, and others,
I haven’t weighed in on this site before, although I’ve been reading Ben’s blog for years. We teachers here in Elizabethtown, PA are going to spend half of our afternoon today at school working on SLOs since PA’s DOE is doing the very same thing. So I have to come up with an assessment to adapt to 21st Century Learning standards, (which are now part of our SLOs), all of which feels like I’m just faking it. I am very intrigued by the discussion about jGR being used for massive parts of one’s grade, just not sure I’m ready to jump off the cliff yet.
Laura and Jen, please count me in on this conversation in Lewiston. Can we maybe plan to all eat lunch together on Friday?
Wow! All y’all are awesome. I just digested all of this in one sitting after Nicole told me I’d better check it out.
Just finished having the “how are we grading this year?” conversation with my colleagues and I agree that “grades” and all that we do to create them are pretty much crap! What is our motivation? To give out points on practice so that they can understand that practice is important? To reward attention to detail? Good memory? (Especially short term.)
To show their current proficiency level????? Seriously, having students monitor where they are on the proficiency scale is neat when they are advancing from novice low to mid or even up towards high, but when they sort of top out at that level and are needing thousands of hours of CI to really make the next jump, what does that do to their motivation???
Still not totally sure where I’m going to land on this one, but I have to decide soon. Yikes!
It’s time to call this all what it is, and you guys are rocking it!
Anyone in the group who is noticing new names like Darcy, Nicole, Heidi and Russ – these are Portland/Salem folks. There’s a lot of them. Get ready for more. Oregon is in the house.
All of a sudden, Oregon is blowing up!
Laura’s story about Tommy is the real deal. I have taught many Tommys. How did we react? If we failed such kids who tried then we suck.
There are ten more months in the year, roughly. But I have my vote for PLC Teacher of the Year in already – Laura Avila.
Jen said this jewel:
…last year the level 3 and 4 kids (jr and sr) were difficult to get on board, but that was mainly due to the social unsafety which I have to address front and center. But in strict terms of “language proficiency” these older students were not at a discernibly higher level than my level 1-2 kids because it was obvious they’d never had to interact. They were used to “projects” (aka go home and copy some #$% off the internet and read it out loud as beset you can since you have not ever heard the spoken language). It’s hard work to reinvent the paradigm when the kids are programmed to the mode of “just tell me what I have to do for an A and then I will check out in class and do that work on my own time.”…
Preach it, jen. Preach it. Let’s get this shit out into the open. It’s finally time. We’ve been waiting long enough. Officers, ready…draw…SABERS!
The most difficult thing about the situation I describe above with “projects” is the kids’ perception “that really helped me learn.” I have to tread carefully around this when my first reaction is to say “well you don’t understand anything I say in class, so how did that help?” Of course I don’t say this out loud to the kid! Those older students with no previous interactive experience or interpersonal skill training are definitely the most difficult and resistant. I found I had to kind of half-ass the CI part for my own mental health, but that meant more paperwork which does not add to my mental health, so a dilemma there!
The ones who return to take “level 4” this year are in for a treat 🙂
Still so many misunderstandings by so many about “how we learn.”
We really do need a “like” button on these comments!!! So many amazing things discussed here. Thank you all!
Practical questions for Darcy: 1) Did you meet specifically with your administration or just write up a proposal? I am curious about that communication.
2) How do I fit the 100% with our school’s 80% 20% summative / formative grading requirement? My idea on this is semantic…in the online grade book I can just enter numbers from the rubric under “summative interpersonal” and “formative interpersonal” right? Would love any other suggestions.
3) We also have “benchmark assessments”. We have to submit “data” on these. I just made shit up, no joke. Not exactly fiction, but whenever I needed “benchmark data” I would just do a normal activity and label it as a “benchmark” retroactively. Ideas on this?
Jen for #2 I would tell the students that they are being graded “right now” with reminders. That will be the formative graded. Tell your students that later there will be a test over 3 days (however long it takes you) to officially grade all your students. Take a seating chart and as you teach, pause to mark positive points during those three days until you have all students. That is yoir summative. I have my rubric projected on the screen while im teaching but I still need mpre discipline on my part.
This is just the way I would do it.
Thank you Steven! I love the new summative:
Tell your students that later there will be a test over 3 days (however long it takes you) to officially grade all your students. Take a seating chart and as you teach, pause to mark positive points during those three days until you have all students. That is yoir summative.
🙂
Y’all are so inspiring. I’m so pleased and feel so privileged to read your thoughts and stories. I’ve been all over the place in the last week getting ready for school, finishing a coursework for my summer classes, and running Hood to Coast (CRUSHED IT). But I’m back in town and so jazzed to start things up this year, and I’ll be participating more in this community!
Jen – 1) I had a meeting in my room with my principal and superintendent (small school/district)…I showed them the rubric, talked briefly about it, and they were on board with enthusiasm. It’s a unicorn of a situation, so I’m sure it’s really hard to relate to relate for others, but it’s so wonderful for me.
2) I really like Steven’s idea. When you have these (somewhat arbitrary) guidelines to adhere to, I would just play the game and be sure you can defend it, but know in your heart that it’s all jGR 100% 🙂
3) I’d use free write data for the benchmarks. I’m going to have them do free writes and track the data in their comp notebooks and have a TA collect data periodically. That way I can use it for whatever – state teacher eval goals, etc.
You ran from Mt. Hood to the coast? What is that distance? OMG. You can’t mean the Pacific Ocean. Maybe to the place on the Columbia River where Lewis and Clark thought they were at the coast because that awesome river was so wide there, kind of near Portland?)
Oh yeah free writes are a golden way to assess. Just measure their growth. And on jGR, which we need to start calling by its PC name now of ISR (or ICR (- the Interpersonal Communication Rubric as Tina called it here earlier today…..which is better?) jGR got a bit of a makeover from Leah and I in Portland at breakfast last week. So we marked it all up but I am not changing what we did because the LA group will probably make even more changes this week in our workshop down there. Eventually we need to come up with a final final version of that wonderful and much used and much loved rubric.
I have a question about how to actually translate the 1-4 scores into the gradebook. I’m needing to enter grades for the first time using this grade book, and I put points possible as “4” because that’s what the rubric said. It also says “4(A), 3(B), 2(C), 1(D)”. I know that if I put in a 3/4, that will not equal a “B” numerically. What do you all do when adding these scores into the gradebook to make sure that the numerical value matches the letter grade on the rubric? Thanks!
Hi Jake, for grading from a rubric there are formulas you can look up, but what I did was assign a number to each rubric level. I assess using the rubric and I’m clear with students it’s not a points thing. BUT our school also uses number grades. So dumb. And twice the work for us. Mine is 4=95, 3=85, 2=64, 1=50. It’s very wonky, but it has worked so far (for 4 years that I have been at this school). The big jump from 85 to 64 is due to how our “competency” system works. 2 is not meeting competency, so I made the number reflect that (65 is passing). It’s all a big smoke screen anyway. Just spend the least amount of time possible on the numbers. And make them align as much as possible with what others in the building are doing, or whatever you are required to do.
Hi Jen, so when you put it in the grade book, do you put the total score out of 100 and then the number grade the student received?
Our grading system is 2 separate “tracks” so to speak.: traditional and competency. And they don’t interconnect. We enter number grades under “traditional” then we have to click and click to get out of that system and then enter number (1-4) in the competency section.
Thanks for responding, Jen. I’m not sure I understand. So, we enter our grades out of 100 (as that is the grading scale at my school) and then you have a separate gradebook of sorts that doesn’t factor into their traditional grades but is a way for you to keep track of their competency. Do I have that right?
The way it worked for me was to tell the computer in the “weight grades” part (when you set up your values at the start of the year0 that, for example w jen, reflects what the school 100 point is supposed to mean. So she gives a 95 for a 4 on a quiz for example and on down. Like she says, it’s arbitrary. Find someone on campus who can help you set up the book that way. Each school has different numbers but usually a 70 is a fail so whatever number you consider a fail on a quiz (I gave 10 pt. quizzes and consider a 5 a fail and since DPS uses a 70 as a fail* I would tell the computer that a 5 on my quizzes, dictees and free writes was a 68 and on up. So you enter an 83 for example, and the computer kicks out at grading time a C. No, she doesn’t keep two books. In a way, she doesn’t even keep one. She “feeds” the computer numbers that make it look like she is “grading” her kids on a 100 pt. scale but it’s jus a transference of 4, 5 or 10 point quizzed, made up “rubric” numbers for a dictee, free writeS, etc. (35%, or jGR (65%). It’s just a way of fooling people, bc they need to be fooled, and are fools for still thinking that a 100 pt. scale has an relevance (it has none) to what we do in WL. So fool them.
*major league baseball players get million dollar salaries for hitting the ball 1 out of 3 tries and we tell a kid that in Spanish they only got 6 out of 10 tries and that’s a fail. Any school still using a 100 pt. scale for WL IS JUST DUMB AS ____. I get to say that bc I as I reflect back on the past 50 years I see that one BIG REASON that kids feel stupid and that they are failures at languages is exactly that 100 pt. scale, so we must learn to lie on their behalf. Using a rubric is not really lying, of course, But when they want a 100 point final grade we have to game the system. So figure out how to do that in your school.
Thanks, Ben. So, for a quiz with 10 questions, you don’t give the grade out of 10? You use the ICR to grade quizzes also? So, if a student misses one, would they get a 9/10 or would they get a 4 or a 3 from the rubric? I was under the impression that quizzes, dictees, etc were graded according to the # of questions, e.g. 10/10 or 4/5, and then the IRC was a separate grade, out of 4 in my case, to be entered daily. This is how I’ve been doing it. I’ve had a couple students worried about their grades since a 2/4 comes out as a 50%. So, in yours and Jen’s classes, did you only have one number that represented each letter grade, so for example, a 95=4 (or an “A”), 85=3 (B), 75=2(C), and 65=1(D) or something like that? Or did you still use a range? Conceptually, this stuff is difficult for me as you can see. Thank you!
I’m toying with our gradebook and found that there are already pre-programmed letter designations that equal the same numerical values that I was going to give out. For example, an O (Outstanding) is 100%, an S+=95%, S=85%, down to a U=55%. So, in some of your buildings a 95% was an A+? I want to ask someone in my building for help, but I don’t yet understand what I’d be asking them to help me with, hence all questions. Thanks for your patience!
1. yes it goes in the book as a 8 of 10 or whatever and the computer takes all of them and when it’s time to calculate grades it spits out a 84 or whatever, however it is programmed by you at the start of the year.
2. no I use a rubric for dictees and free writes only. Here’s my rubric: I look at the paper and put a grade out of ten down. It takes me less than a second. Quizzes get the number right. I always used a ten pt. scale so if we had little time I doubled a five on the quizzes. Those three grades are “little grades” and are weighted at 35%. Then the rest of it is jGR for their observable non-verbal grade, the jGR/ ISR or whatever you want to call the interspersonal skill eval. of the Three Modes.
3. no I didn’t use a rubric on quizzes.
4. a kid getting 2/4 and it showing up as a 50% in the book is messed up and why jen and I had to overule the computer. The four system doesn’t work well for this. That’s why I always made 10/10 possible – I’d look at a dictee and faster than a speeding bullet would put a 7/10 on it. Speed grading was my game. If I couldn’t grade a set of papers before the next class came in I considered it a failure. And then I would enter it while they did FCR.
5.Yes those numbers you gave as examples at the end of your comment above were almost exactly my numbers as I remember.
You’re doing fine. The reason it is hard to grasp is that you are trying to be honest and jen and I long ago gave that up in favor of doing what one should always do with fools who ask for unreasonable things – fool them.
Thanks, Ben, this is what I needed. After doing more digging into my gradebook program, our grading scale is programmed into the system, and I don’t think it can be changed. I think I’m going to go with the O, S+, S, S-, and U scale, which is changing from I told them at the beginning (I told them it’d be out of 4, and now there’s 5 possibilities). I can just correct that quickly by telling them in class though.
Grading is the bane of my existence also. I also value speed-grading. I taught ESL writing class at a university before this and grading was the worst. I’m trying to minimize my grading as much as possible. Small side question: do you keep the quizzes, dictees, etc?
Not only do I not keep the quizzes, I don’t even enter half of them. As soon as the class hands them to me on their way out the door and the last kid leaves, I drop them into the trash at the door. Jake, we are the professionals. We get to do what we want. We have been made to think that we have to do a lot of things that we just don’t in order to keep a “record”. My record is what I see in my kids in class and left to my own devices I could produce a far more accurate grade just by what I see in their observable non-verbal behaviors, which is why they in the form of jGR or ICS – all those interpersonal communication rubrics connected to the Three Modes and COMMUNICATION – comprise a whopping 65%. They should be 100% but the school doesn’t believe in my professionalism and needs “evidence”. Of all the people in this group over the years, jen and I “get” the most that grading is a scam and for you as a younger teacher to be buying in to it all is a waste of your time. I have always called for a massive movement against grading in favor of fake grading bc the people checking on us don’t know what the hell they are looking for. Change the system from within. Be the boss and fake the fake bosses out and learn to frickin’ relax a bit. Go look at your paychecks stubs and tell me I’m wrong and that we need to work harder. The 65%/35% ratio has been around since the early 2000s and not once has anyone called me on it.
This has been a whole paradigm shift for me coming back into teaching. I’ve noticed many lingering concerns I have from when I last taught at the hs level (2010), but teaching with the Invisibles and NTCI has alleviated a lot of those concerns and changed how I think about them, grades being one of them. From what I understand, and perhaps I have it wrong, even though you and Jen disagree with grading, didn’t you still have to grade things and put them in the gradebook according to a rationale? When I read in your books that you graded quizzes and such a certain way, it gave me the impression that you graded work and put it in a gradebook like everyone else. Now I know that you didn’t enter everything, but you entered some things. What you are saying makes sense, and I appreciate it. I’m working this all out, and these conversations are helpful.
Hi again Jake!
Ben outlined the basic rationale in grading, which is do whatever you need to do to satisfy the admin requirements. Assessment, however is a different and worthwhile communication. As you are probably aware, assessment is communication that is valuable to adapt one’s teaching, whereas grading is more of a judgement based on a specific point to be reached within a time frame. Due to the nature of language (individual internal constraints) grading is not appropriate. I tell my students it would be like grading someone based on height. They have zero control over that.
Since we are acquisition-driven, grading really has no place in what we do, and can be very damaging. Assessment is valuable because it tells the student “you are here” and it tells the teacher “student x is here” “student y is here” ( on a spectrum ). It’s most valuable for the teacher, because the pace / topic / complexity can be adapted based on the assessment.
My personal “system” is to use the 4-3-2-1 (because that is what our school does / moving toward standards-based…but still stuck in numberZ because…colleges??? who knows???). Please do not think you must do what I do. I only add numbers because I am required. There is really no such thing as an 88 in “acquisition” vs 82, etc. This is why the 4 3 2 1 works best for me in the current situation. BVP has talked about this at length on his shows “Tea with BVP” and “Talkin L2 with BVP.” I’m only mentioning this because he is a “well known person” in SLA and has stated clearly that grading (aka judgement based on an external criteria) has no place in acquisition. He also acknowledges that most of us work in a system that requires us to judge.
In real time, I’m looking at the students’ skills and assessing / adapting constantly. On paper, like on a reading assessment or listening assessment, I look at what the student can do (understand main ideas + many details =4 / understand the main idea = 3 / understand a few phrases = 2 / understand isolated words = 1). That is how I do interpretive mode. Interpersonal is with the rubric (a simplified version, single-point), and i do not formally assess presentational mode. I have have students self-assess and that is it. Always emphasizing that their comprehension level will always be much higher than their presentational level and that is normal.
Since you have a schoolwide 5 point scale (O, S+, S …etc) it may be easiest for you to add a 0 level at the bottom or a 5 level at the top, so that you can make the number equivalencies work better. I do not typically do a range of numbers, because I am not doing assessments that can be quantified in that way. If they are a 3 on the rubric, they are an 85. BUT our grading system averages numbers so kids will end up with 82 and 73, etc. I tell them that for our purposes I do not want scores to be averaged, so I will go back and change grades to reflect current level. In practice, I eyeball it and if its close enough I leave it. I’ve had to change a few but that is rare. Less energy spent grading = more energy spent on creating community in class and sparking confidence in students!!! Hope this is somewhat helpful. ***rubric assessment for everything but quick quiz, which is a “normal” number grade***
In the past year I have found Anne Marie Chase’s mini-assessments very easy to implement and they leave an official looking ( and actually helpful for students) paper trail. EXCEPT I do not assign the grade based on the proficiency level. I just leave that out. I started using these becuse I found that my students do better with some very concrete feedback. You can find the forms here: https://senorachase.com/2018/09/01/actfl-proficiency-quick-quiz-rubrics/ Hope that is not adding complexity. feel free to ignore!!!