Judy sent me this in an email about Jeff’s questions (see jGR and Parents 1) and I am posting her entire response here because it doesn’t format well as a comment. It’s just a continuation of that discussion. We can’t talk about this enough. Judy’s responses to the parent’s comments are in bold and in italics:
First email:
Thank you for meeting with me yesterday about my daughter’s progress in Latin. I appreciate you taking the time to explain to me the grading procedure and what is expected of my daughter. I came home last night and took a closer look at my daughter’s grades and discussed with her the “rubric” that you shared with me about class participation grades. We are not grading class participation. The difference may appear subtle to you, but in a language class we are required to evaluate a student’s ability to communicate. (Here give references to official requirements.)
First, I realized as I looked at her grades closer, that the “classroom participation” actually accounted for 55% of the grade, as opposed to the 30-40% that was mentioned in our meeting. There seems to be a misunderstanding. Ask where they came up with the number 55%. Also, when I looked closer at daughter’s other grades (the quiz scores), I realized that her average was actually a 90% on the quizzes. This 90% also included the last quiz which she got a 70% on, that was added to Progress Book a couple of days after the quarter ended. When my daughter saw the 70% score, she was very surprised. She truly thought that she had gotten all 5 of the questions correct and that the 70% couldn’t be correct. She said that the quizzes are never graded and returned to the students, so she never sees what she missed, but she thought, by talking to the other students, that she had gotten all 5 true/false questions correct. There seems little purpose of giving quizzes if students can not see them afterwards. I assume that the daughter’s version is not quite the truth. Not returning quizzes to students seems dangerous. It would leave the door open to all kinds of accusations such as this parent’s. Of course, I discussed with her how she needs to speak up next time, and ask about the quiz when she sees the grade on Progress Book, if she does not understand her grade. However, this leads me back to the “feedback” issue. Why aren’t kids given back their graded quizzes? I would think it would be important for kids to SEE the graded work, so they know what they got wrong (and don’t feel like they were graded unfairly or the grade was a mistake). Just out of curiosity, can we see my daughter’s last quiz that she got a 70% on? You definitely need to clear this up. You can not let students accuse you of being unfair.
Also, I tried to find the class participation rubric you discussed, so I could discuss it with my daughter. However, I could NOT find it on Schoology. It may be somewhere out there, but I searched for some time and could not find it. (There is a different grading sheet out there, but I would like to see the one that you kept referring to in class.) Could you please tell me specifically where to find it, or give me a copy? There should be no problem about giving them a copy and making sure it is available on Schoology.
When discussing the rubric with my daughter, I found that she was already very familiar with it. However, she did not seem to understand why she was getting low scores (78% on past two grades). I pointed out some of the reasons that you mentioned she might have gotten a low score and below was her assessment. (Please note, my daughter likes to keep a “low profile” and would be horrified if she knew I was discussing this with you. She would never feel comfortable complaining, but I thought it would be helpful for you to hear her perspective.)
– Going to the bathroom too much. my daughter was SHOCKED about this. She said she has only gone to the bathroom once, possibly twice at the most, the entire year. This is the daughter’s subjective version. A possible response is that even once or twice is too much, unless she has specific health problems. Is it fair to say that the large majority of students (and 100% of teachers) NEVER go to the bathroom during class. She said that when she went, she did it at the very first of the class, so as not to be disruptive getting up and down during the middle of class. A good chance to point out that the very first of the class is where you present the important structures that all the rest of the class is based on.
– Not participating in class discussions. she said that she always joins in with the class for the big “yes”/”no” class answers, unless she absolutely doesn’t know what the answer is. As far as speaking up and answering questions by herself, she said that she does it some of the time… not as much as the few kids that do it all the time, but a lot more than a lot of the kids that say very little. She said sometimes her hand is up and she doesn’t get called on. Obviously, the solution is for her to raise her hand more often. You can not guarantee that you will call on her every time she raises her hand. But this is also a reason why the self evaluation rubric is helpful, so you can perceive when students think that they are participating more than you think they are. Also, sometimes she hesitates to think and other hands shoot up very quickly and get called on first. Of course, in a TPRS class the race is often to the swiftest, but it’s good from time to time to wait before you call on someone, giving slower students time to think it through. But, it would also be good to explain to the parent that you are not interested in what students can produce once they’ve thought it through, but in what they ACQUIRED, which is why the other students are answering so much faster than she is.
– Not saying “stop” when she doesn’t understand. I had assumed that she was just being shy and was not comfortable doing this. However, when I mentioned it, she corrected me and told me that she often says (in Latin) that she does not understand. In fact, she said that she had just done it that very day! Congratulate the girl and encourage her to continue.
– Once in a while, talking to her friend, behind her. she said she sometimes turns around and asks the girl behind her (Carly?), what something means. This girl is not really even a friend of hers or anyone that she socializes with outside of class. She is asking her about Latin. I explained to her that her teacher may think that she is “socializing” and that if she has a question, she needs to ask it out loud, not to another girl. Here the girl seems to be contradicting herself. She “often says she does not understand” but when she does not understand she thinks she should be allowed to ask the girl behind her, which perturbs the concentration of the girl behind her.
– Posture/attentiveness. I asked her if she was sitting up straight at her desk, with her eyebrows up, nodding and using facial expressions or was she just slouching in her chair, looking bored. She said she is probably slouching in her chair more often than not, but she is still paying attention and listening. I told her that perception seems to be everything in this class and she needs to sit up straight and nod her head. Perception is everything in any situation of interactive communication. That’s why we call it “body language”. If she is slouching and looking bored, it means that she has chosen to send you (and the rest of the class) the message that she is bored. It is an act of communication. Sitting up straight and looking attentive sends the message that she is engaged in the classroom discussion.
So, after talking with you and her, here are my concerns:
1. I believe having 55% of the grade being based on classroom participation is too much, particularly when you have one teacher trying to write on the board, talk, and watch 30 kids’ body language/facial expressions/etc. I do not think it is possible to fairly assess each student under these circumstances. Clear up the question of how much of the grade is based on Classroom Communication. You might also want to point out that TPRS teachers don’t spend much time writing on the board and that since you are communicating with your students, you “Teach to the Eyes.”
2. Participation grades should be less about superficial things like slouching in your chair and going to the bathroom on occasion and more about talking, understanding and learning Latin. Basically you’ve already answered this, but you might want to insist on the difference between Learning and Acquiring.
3. Students need feedback on why they are getting certain grades. Particularly, why did a particular student get a 78% on a week’s classroom participation score, instead of a 95%? Also, graded quizzes should be handed back to students so they can see what they missed and understand where their grades are prior to them being posted on Progress Book weeks later. This is a genuine problem and should be addressed.
4. I am still concerned that there is no way for a student to work harder or study more to be successful in this class. As you said, kids learn and pick up Latin at different rates. I believe we are setting the slower learners up for failure when it comes to taking the High School exams in January and May. There should be some way that these kids can prepare more for the exam. There is. It’s called Input. They can do more reading in Latin. (Do tapes or films exist in Latin?) Also, you can point out that since you changed your method of teaching, your students have much better results on exams, right?
Second parent email:
Thank you for your response Mr. Brickler,
I’m still not certain how my daughter’s grades began dropping despite her conserted effort to engage more in class. You have not indicated to me how she began to dip in her classroom performance going from an A when we met, to less than that at grade card time.
Please understand, I am not questioning the method, but I am questioning how my daughter is measured on her performance–specifically. Where is she hitting beneath a B, as reflected in her latter grades on the progress book, occurring after our conference? Since the parent had a conference with you where all seemed to be going well, this is a legitimate question and needs to be addressed.
As I stated, she is not a perfect match for such a teaching strategy, but that does not matter, she can still grasp and master the material at this intro level, even if her ‘performance’ is not perfect. I see this dilemma of hers parellel to those who take gym class who are not athletic. Somehow they are still able to get an A despite not being a natural athlete. They might not score/run/shoot as good as a natural athlete, but do they understand the rules of the game, execute a defense and offence? My daughter is not a ‘natural’ communicator in English, therefore it will not flow effortlessly for her in Latin, however she is learning the rules of the game right?
Is she communicating in Latin, comparable to how she communicates in English? She is not outgoing and gregarious and her baseline interaction of ‘non-verbal’ responses, are subtle based on personality type. Her inflection in English is not dramatic, let alone in Latin. Once again, a language class is all about communication. If she is a poor communicator, she can not expect to have excellent grades. It’s possible that by learning to communicate better in Latin, she will be helped to improve her skills in English.
By comparison, this concern of mine is not about grades, but about a dip in performance, after we met, and when I became more clear on your expectatioins and Audrey and I strategized to help her. You had indicated to me at conferences she was easily within the low/mid range of an A; and maintaining that should not be a problem. She tests 90?s to 100?s and ‘knows’ the material. So the B+ is a surprise to both her and I; especially after she feels like she “stepped it up a notch in class”. The girl feels she “stepped it up a notch.” Your grades seem to indicate that she lowered her efforts. Could you discuss this with the girl and try to find why your perceptions are so different? You, the girl and her parents have the same goal. You all want her to perform better in class. You need to make it very clear how your common goal can be attained.