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Milking – 10
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19 thoughts on “Milking – 10”
Hi Ben – your idea of just hanging out with PQA appeals to me…because it’s simpler…less pressure…easier to play with. I HATE/DREAD the pressure of creating a story. But I think I can do PQA and relax…if story evolves, so be it..
Thanks for the idea of repetition in songs. Whew.
The more we learn, the more we realize we have to learn. Kind of like my journey with the Lord….God keeps bringing back the same lesson…in different formats. He is patient with me..and he focuses on one thing at a time. I’m glad, as a believer, that I don’t see the whole big sanctification thing..like our students don’t know the whole scope of the language. They just trust us for today.
Maria
Newport News, Va
My Russian students (when I taught ESL) used to love to say:
“Repetizia matb uchenya” (the best I can do without a Cyrillic keyboard :- )
Repetition is the mother of learning.
Michele, is it a common saying in Russian culture?
You know that this post really speaks to my little tprs heart! Thanks-will reread a few thousand times.
Maria I really like what you are pointing at there when you say that they trust us. If I may infer from what I read, it seems that we don’t do very well by that trust. With good intentions even, we think that we have this mighty grasp of knowledge that is really valuable to our kids, and we have all sorts of (grammar) labels and the key to a kingdom that, without us and our wisdom, our kids can never enter. It’s that old idea of the teacher as infallible. But, when in one Denver area district 89% of kids don’t make it past level two, quitting from exhaustion, it can be accurately said that the teacher in that case is VERY fallible. In fact, they probably fail tens of thousands of kids a year in the United States.
The fact is, a very large percentage of our kids don’t care much about learning grammar and all of that boring old stuff and, if they didn’t have to be there, they wouldn’t be there. So many kids can’t care because their parents ran out of money at home ten days before the end of the month, or are splitting up, or their best friend hasn’t come to school in fifteen days. Then we get them and act all hoity toity about how important our class is. It’s not, in their own realm of real world priorities. But because it is in our world of priorities, we make serious errors in how we interface with them.
Their scope of the language is so much different, like you say Maria. They come to us in trust and just want to be interested and relax and learn, maybe laugh a little, and certainly not fret about grades and busywork. They don’t want to struggle to pass, but our professorial hubris about how smart we are prevents us from building a good, peaceful and loving environment for them. We build threatening environments, because we (not me any more) come from a place of fear in our teaching.
No wonder languages have been so unpopular in schools for so many years. We’ve been betraying their trust! But now, it is changing. It’s changing for real.
You may not have meant any of that, Maria, but that is what I thought about when I read what you wrote.
Caryn, older Russians still say that a lot. I’ve been hanging out with a lot of Russian teens, and they don’t say it at all, but probably they aren’t old enough to recognize its truth.
Ben, I think we could learn a lot about introduction, pacing, variety, repetition and closure from a consideration of music. You keyed in on the Ventures; I’ll focus on Handel.
If we take just the Hallelujah chorus, we see a number of things applicable to TPRS. The piece starts with a theme/structure: “Haal-le-lu-jah [“slow” and elongated], Haal-le-lu-jah [repetition], Hallelujah [quick], Hallelujah [repetition], Hal-leee-lu-jah [“slow” with variation].” Handel plays with that for a while and adds a “subplot”: “For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth”. During this part, we have “whole-class” (whole-choir) participation interspersed with various groupings. (The sub-theme is introduced by basses and tenors, then adds altos, then brings in sopranos.)
When he thinks he’s played with the theme and subtheme enough, Handel introduces a “state change” – much slower and quieter – “The kingdom of this world . . . ” That’s just a breather in preparation for and builds to the next main theme.
New theme/structure: “And He shall reign for ever and ever”. The basses get that one as a strong solo statement of the new theme. Then Handel passes it around among the sections [sub-groupings of the whole class]. Each group gets its own variation (key changes), and the whole is sprinkled liberally with snippets from the first theme/structure (“Hallelujah, Hallelujah”).
Before this can get stale, we get another sub-theme: “King of Kings, and Lord of Lords”, supported once again by the first theme (“Hallelujah, Hallelujah”). Just when we think everything has been said, the basses re-state “And He shall reign for ever and ever” in all its glory in the original key.
That causes a “contest” between the two main themes: “Forever and ever” vs “Hallelujah”. Slowly theme one takes over “Forever and ever’s” notes. Grand Pause (stop, let it sink in). Finally one last grand statement of the first theme: HAL-LE-LU-JAH!
Some things I see from this:
-Never say something more than twice without a variation of some sort
-Don’t stray so far from the theme/structure that it becomes unrecognizable
-Give everyone a break occasionally
-Silence is every bit as important as sound
-Once you have two themes, variety is easy by mixing the two in different ways
-After enough time, a re-statement of the theme/structure in exactly the same way is new
-You need to vary who gets to participate in the theme/structure – new voices make the same theme/structure new
-Bring it all to a grand close by stating the basic theme one last time firmly and authoritatively
I think the analogy to music in this way is brillant Ben! I also think that Robert’s development is really excellent and it fits perfectly with tprs compared to a sonata. Put simply, the first part is the exposition where the main themes are presented (PQA to introduce one set of structures and a few related vital vocab). A second related theme can be presented, perhaps other structures and the vocab needed to use it and they are all developed using PQA. I would think repeating the themes in a different context (different locations using different students like Robert stated) and then a recapitulation where all the themes are presented in sequence followed by the first main theme at the end.
As for stories, I always thought the goal was to recycle and combine already seen material in a new context. New vocab can be added but you can’t forget the CI + 1. So when I did stories for my third year classes at the end of last year, I just guided the outline of the story using the wh- questions, for ex:
1. who? describe first character physically and/or personality (presented each year with more vocab).
2. where? (they have already have preps and adjs) and when? if desired.
3-4) what? who?present a little problem or action that triggers one and usually another charac. but I’m open to whatever order the kids want. (I tell them ‘stick to what you know’. If they suggest something too advanced I try to simplify or say ‘another time’)
5) Develop the story line (can add how and why), plus dialogue if you want and try to repeat.
6) Resolve with something funny if possible.
Is this correct or have I misinterpreted something? The stories seem nasty for many teachers, so I wonder then if I’m doing something wrong!
This is most valuable, Robert. That last part there really does key in on all of the elements of a good TPRS class, in my opinion. Just to review your conclusions:
-Never say something more than twice without a variation of some sort. So that is what we do. We may circle around an utterance more than twice, but we always vary it by adding in a detail, whenever that particular round of circling wains.
-Don’t stray so far from the theme/structure that it becomes unrecognizable. Exactly. We take an utterance, circle it, add a detail, circle that new detail, add in a detail, do that again, and then, when the whole thing gets saturated, we add in a new event by saying “Class, something happened” (which I got directly from Blaine this summer) or, if we don’t add in a new event, we bring in a new character, but we keep everything within the original idea, the original problem, whether it’s a bunch of PQA or a story or whatever it becomes. The discussion never becomes unrecognizable because we are always explaining why something that had been circled before happened, going back and explaining things that were added in as details earlier. There is cohesiveness when we do this (what I like to refer to as the downward conical double helix spiral that spins into new ones so that we could tell a story for ten hours in a row if we had the energy). That helix thing sounds weird, I know, but, again, Blaine gave me that image of how TPRS works this past summer and it really resonated with me, although, as a spatial image, it is practically impossible to put into words, so sorry about that if it is confusing.
Give everyone a break occasionally. Yes, I am really into brain breaks lately, mini ones during class and I am going to explore stopping class for 3 – 5 minutes right in the middle after twenty minutes and just visit with the kids, get to know each of them a bit more.
Silence is every bit as important as sound. This is the art of PQA, putting in those pauses while they process what you just said.
Once you have two themes, variety is easy by mixing the two in different ways. When we bring in a new event or character when one idea has been circled to a point of what Blaine called “saturation”, we do this.
After enough time, a re-statement of the theme/structure in exactly the same way is new. We briefly recycle information every ten minutes or two.
You need to vary who gets to participate in the theme/structure – new voices make the same theme/structure new. We vary our actors. Large classes of around 35 kids who know how to play the game bring much variety.
Bring it all to a grand close by stating the basic theme one last time firmly and authoritatively. We do the retell.
Carol you wrote:
“As for stories, I always thought the goal was to recycle and combine already seen material in a new context.”
I think that is true. But, whereas the focus of your sentence is on the creation of a story out of the PQA, with the story as the goal, I like to stay with the PQA and let it become its own story, as it were. Compare that to the sonata allegro form or in Bach’s fugues, or in any of that Baroque music, the original idea, the original energy, so to speak, is happier when it is kept in the forefront of things and is not, as it were, the front band (I once say Stevie Wonder as the set up band for the Rolling Stones, by the way – when Mick finally got there, we were all almost done for the evening). Why should we try to curtail energy that is working in the form of PQA because we “have to get to the story”?
Your comparison to the form of the concerto was interesting. I wrote a blog to that effect but can’t find it. I did find a couple of other blogs on the topic of music though:
January 12, 2009 – Crazy Again
March 10, 2009 – Verbal Galaxies
We really need to talk about this maybe on the phone. Because this topic of the “overall form” of how we want the class to go, how much PQA we want to do vs. how much of a story we want to do, is a very important topic. Because if we don’t get a story going within the first ten minutes of a 50 min. class, we won’t have a story. I’m o.k. with that. I’m beginning to think that the myth of the story is a major turnoff to a lot of people who try TPRS, and if we could just get them to relax and talk to the kids as per Susie’s constant admonition, they wouldn’t be so stressed out.
Love this thread!
Here are a couple excerpts from John Medina in “Brain Rules” that resonate with your thoughts on memory and exposure to language:
“The more elaborately we encode information at the moment of learning, the stronger the memory. ”
“The relationship between repetition and memory is clear. Deliberately re-expose yourself to the information more elaborately if you want retrieval to be of higher quality. Deliberately re-expose yourself to the information more elaborately, and in fixed, spaced intervals, if you want the retrieval to be the most vivid it can be. ”
Carol,
I love the way you clarified the goal of stories “to recycle and combine already seen material in a new context.” I think it is brilliantly simple and clear. The reason that I think so many of us feel fear (terror?) with stories is that we have given ourselves the heavy burden of having to shine, sparkle, have homerun stories every single time. It ain’t gonna happen! And when it doesn’t meet our expectations, we panic. Your gentle guidance, using questioning techniques, tweaking a little bit, not hitting the circling too heavy (especially with more advanced classes) is perfect. Students learn to elaborate within the story format. I think it may also help to anchor the structures in a deeper context.
Repetition of a funny phrase or image can be the glue that holds the story together, lends energy, or even allows a graceful ending to the story. It can be the inside class joke…a fallback that doesn’t feel like a surrender.
I just feel like if we approached stories with your philosophy, we would be more successful, happier, more confident, and so would our kids.
Chris
Thank you Chris! I think I see 2 different types of stories here. One that develops from PQA like what Ben is talking about (that I only recently discovered) and one that can be done every so many lessons to recycle and combine. I called it ‘story day’ and the kids would really pay attention to the PQA ‘days’- which did revolve around them- because they knew we would write a story later. They loved inventing, creating and applying what they had learned. The French aren’t as into creative writing as the Americans and it was refreshing for my students. But this was a 3rd year class. I did manage the same with the first years, but at the very end of the year.
I still like the story aspect but I have to think differently about PQA now… I need some time for it to ‘cook’ in my brain first!
Thank you Ben for the other blog listings on music!!
Inga,
Would you explain or show what is meant by “elaborately encode”? I think I have an idea, but could you elaborate? 🙂
Great thread going here! With the musical connection I just can’t resist adding my own “bißchen Senf dazu.” (my own little dab o’ mustard to it)
The comparison of music to language learning is so good because what we are really talking about here is just language. I think the old way of teaching is more like the sonata or concerto, because of all the RULES related to form. And the memorization and strict adherence to these things for it to be (judged and) accepted or rejected according to the past. What we’re going for is more like jazz improvisation, with set (chord) STRUCTURES and encouragement to create something brand spanking new all the time.
We also have to recognize that comprehensible input is Krashen’s idea, and that there were already big wig language people in the 70’s and 8o’s who were talking about comprehensible input. For example, it was my (AWESOME, AWESOME) college prof (Bob DiDonato, now at Miami in Ohio) from whom I had first heard “comprehensible input” mentioned. I remember him encouraging us to VENTURE BEYOND “lauter” und “leiser” (more loudly and softly) for more interesting, meaningful repetition like:
“Wie im Supermarkt” (like/as in the supermarket)
“Wie in der Kirche” (church)
“Wie Michael Jackson” (I think he used “Wie Bruce Springsteen” here)
“Wie am Bahnhof” (at the train station), etc.
With all these types of threads (10000000000 DANK to everyone for bringing all these different perspectives here!) on the value of PQA, I’m finding that just “parking at PQA” does wonders not only for the quality of my teaching, but also for the rapport I’m enjoying with my students this year! It’s always been part of my nature to choose to improvise over following rules, anyway!
And for kids, it really all comes down to this when choosing their electives: Am I going to have fun learning something, or will I have to follow rules?
Robert,
Sure thing. This is my take: From a foreign language teacher’s perspective, “elaborately encoding” means that we make meaning clear and familiar to students through a variety of means (i.e. personalization/relevance, humor, inflection, mnemonics, visuals, and probably most importantly, repetition over a long period of time) so that our students may encode (translate/decipher) word meanings in their mental schema.
We can encode via chants too, and a thousand other little word chompingnesses. I am trying to be open enough now in PQA to respond to the variety of ways Inga mentions above, ways which kind of worm their way into my mind during a class (that subterranean voice that says, “DO A CHANT RIGHT NOW ON THAT!”) This is in line with what Bernie says about following the free, rule-less form of PQA over a story, which needs rules and steps to bring it into existence.
The thing is, I would miss those stories (too early in the year now anyway), and will always do some, but I think that the point Bernie started a few weeks ago when he said take a structure and “PQA the hell out of it” (right on!) is so valid, because, precisely, we are at a higher level of P and a higher level of freedom in PQA than we can ever be in a story. Of course, maybe this whole discussion gets reversed in three months when we are doing whackeroni stories and PQA might take a back seat.
Hmmm. PQA… or stories… or the book…. Hmmm.
Lately, I have been rocking the 25 minute free form story that you proposed Ben. It seemed like a hit during my observation today. I was however disappointed by how dry and stiff I was. My students were awesome though. I asked for a retell. A student volunteered and told the story in ENGLISH! I let the student tell it though and thanked him. Then I asked for a retell in French. A student volunteered. The only thing is that I feel that I was limited with my reps. I guided the student to do the retell but it felt too forced.
What can I learn from this? Be cool, now.
As for PQA. They are always home runs for me with my LV1s. I’ve had last minute plans on Mondays to just choose 1 question Ex: “what did you do during the weekend” and just have an additional 2 structures and go into PQA or PSA. I can tell that these students do not get this enough from their teachers.
Hi Frequency, practical, contextualized, compelling, repetitive. Just sayin’:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVhVilUA-cw
Why don’t we?
If that link doesn’t work try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AdtR-d2HJQ
Why don’t we?