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Advice Needed
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22 thoughts on “Advice Needed”
I’m puzzled. So the students didn’t get it? My very limited experience with Spanish native speakers is that they need guidance with readings. Making the link between spoken and written Spanish is missing.
I’m sure it is a frustrating class. It should be all native speakers or all newbies.
Can you imagine being in a class for beginners English?
So misguided!!
Maybe Cherie’s husband, who is principal of a big high school in Albermarle, VA, can be apprised of our concerns in this area. I would love to know what he would say about this practice, if it is being done in his school, how he would address it, etc.
I shared this with Jay last night and his immediate question was, “why are native speakers in level 1”? His school is the largest in central VA and has a high population of ESOL students. Many are illiterate in their L1 while obviously fluent speakers. He says there is no rule or reg that says that students have to start in level 1. When they realized several years back that this was happening with their students, they began placing them in level 2 or 3 and provided additional support in the areas where they were weak, mainly reading. I know several of his teachers have their heritage speakers in the job of story writer, or use them as Spanish “experts” in class. They may pretend not to be certain of something (or they really aren’t) and they will go to those kids and ask how they would say something, or is there a different expression in the country they come from, etc. Something to keep them engaged in the listening and also show that they respect their language abilities and heritage. I know other teachers on the blog have said similar things.
Last thing he said was, “Putting native speakers in level 1 is not serving the student or meeting them where they are. If it’s not in the best interest of the student, then why is it being done?”
Do those native speakers deserve the best that we have to offer? What form can our services to them take? What we are doing now isn’t working. Who is willing to serve them by setting up the best programs for them to become productive citizens, programs based fully on research that may not have even been done yet? They are here. God put them here. Are they going to be put in level 1 classes? Heritage classes? Shaming classes? What are we going to do? It’s a test of our humanity.
He left this morning for a state basketball tournament, he goes to everything for the kids. I’ll check with him tomorrow and post his response. He did say that even with that adjustment to placement, it is still something that they are working on in world language and reassessing. Is it Mike Peto who works at a school with Heritage classes for native speakers? I know I’ve read about it somewhere. That is certainly ideal. Otherwise you are essentially teaching a multi-level class.
We have the heritage classes in Denver as well. Are they the best we can do? What would the best classes for those kids look like? I don’t know.
From Jay-“we evaluate each child individually and place them in the appropriate level based on their LIFE experiences and knowledge. There is no state or national law, that I know of, that says they have to take level 1 first. That is silly and if the county/district has a strict policy prohibiting this then that is unfortunate and sad.”
In response to separate class-
“Yep. Why not? Too often in schools we have a one size fits all approach and we are not flexible. I have NO idea why!!! A native speaker, 1 year, transition class could be a wonderful idea.”
Well if you guys in VA do anything let us know. It’s not my area but I just feel that we haven’t yet designed the best class for them. The whole native speaker thing is so odd because of the poverty angle. I saw so many things in my 99% Latino school on Federal Blvd. in West Denver. I can’t even get my head around it all. How does one be an immigrant? And yet we are all immigrants.
Yes It is frustrating and demoralizing at times. I’m looking for a different school. The special circumstance is that this is a continuation school so the only real goal is for students to get credits and pass through. There are too few students that are willing to take Spanish as an elective, and the student body in general is apathetic and unsuccessful at school. This is their last stop.
I have a friend who works with students who are in their last stop in middle school. Basically, her job is to just be patient and make the classroom positive then MAYBE they can learn something. With so many problems these students are just hanging in there. She gets paid well currently she has about 7 students.
Yeah this sounds like my current job. It is good money for not a lot of work so nothing to complain about there but I think we all want our work to be meaningful. That’s where the frustration comes from. I could honestly just give them worksheets and the admin wouldn’t really care.
Craig I don’t want to underemphasize the effect a “last stop” school can have on a teacher who is trying to do innovative things. There are many teachers who are idealistic and smitten with the idea of reaching kids whom they cannot reach, especially when they see what kind of motor TPRS has. I was one such teacher at Abraham Lincoln High School in Denver. Do not treat your (NATURAL AND NORMAL) feelings of being demoralized lightly. You are demoralized for a reason – a good one that has nothing to do with your effectiveness as a teacher. You can’t grow in this profession if the building is too full of hopelessness. Yes, do what you can, enjoy and love the kids, but only give from excess. Don’t drain yourself. Doing that has ended more than a few careers. Keep your balance. Breathe.
” only give from excess” Awesome words here.
With the 80:20 ratio of Heritage to WL learners, I’d consider gearing the class to the majority: the Heritage speakers. Perhaps have a mini lesson with the whole group (establishing meaning and some story spinning) – then on alternating days work w/e/group – some days direct reading instruction for the Heritage speakers while the others do independent activities – illustrating, translating, textivate, etc. Then while you ‘teach’ the newbies, the Heritage speakers listen to audio books while following along (a la A-Z reading).
It is shameful that the admin are lumping everyone together like this….
Thank you everyone for the advice it is greatly appreciated!!
Back in the early 90s when I studied Krashen in grad school there were hot debates about bilingual education.
What do Heritage speakers need to succeed moving forward that school can/should provide? I think literacy skills is high on the list.
Heritage learners need to be taught to read at whatever level they are (I had many heritage speakers who’d never gone to school regularly before and their first experience w/reading was in the US). If they are illiterate young adults, then they need basic literacy to start.
Is it the responsibility of the WL Spanish 1 teacher to whom they were carelessly thrown to teach them how to read?
Would we accept this perpetuation of illiteracy for our native English speakers?
Non-English speakers don’t have a voice or advocate (except us) sometimes. We must question and challenge our school/district policies. We must be upstanders!
Claire maybe you can draw Jay’s attention to what Alisa said in bold above, especially:
…Would we accept this perpetuation of illiteracy for our native English speakers?…
That right there kind of gets to the bone marrow part of this discussion.
Craig said: “80% native speakers” My reaction is…damn, you’re in trouble.
I am literally speechless. Sorry, Craig.
Alisa is 100% right. Okay, my background is in Second Language Education, so I’m not a expert, but I’m convinced a teacher with licensure only in a World/Foreign Language is not qualified to teach native speakers, which is an entirely different pedagogy.
“Heritage learners need to be taught to read at whatever level they are”
-Amen, and that’s the problem: Heritage students don’t need Conversational language (BICS) taught in Foreign Language classrooms. They need a stronger focus on literacy, but more than that, they need Cognitive Academic Language Proficiency (CALP). Without access to curriculum designed for L1 speakers (like the bilingual education as Alisa mentioned), students will not get what they need.
Teachers who know what CALP is much less how to teach it, can not teach Heritage students. They will not grow. They can sit through a TPRS class and be entertained, but native speakers (and many English as Second Language students in the US) need more or they will not grow.
“Is it the responsibility of the WL Spanish 1 teacher to whom they were carelessly thrown to teach them how to read?”
No! This isn’t in your job description. You teach the language to non-native speakers. Teaching native speakers is a whole different pedagogy. Don’t be embarrassed to tell your principles so: it’s not that you don’t know what you’re doing. These students just need entirely different programing.
“Would we accept this perpetuation of illiteracy for our native English speakers?”
Excellent point.
“Non-English speakers don’t have a voice or advocate (except us) sometimes. We must question and challenge our school/district policies. We must be upstanders!”
You are my hero, Alissa!
*Teachers who don’t know what CALP is, much less how to teach it can’t teach Heritage students.
By the way, I love bilingual education when done right. However, bad bilingual education programs give it a bad reputation. If educators don’t have the background and training, they won’t know how to help students.
I’m sorry for teachers (like Craig) and students stuck in this situation; they have to rely on administrators to make decisions about programming they understand so little about.
“…Would we accept this perpetuation of illiteracy for our native English speakers?…” -Alisa
“That right there kind of gets to the bone marrow part of this discussion.” -Ben
I agree wholeheartedly, and I see your frustration. We would not “accept perpetuation of illiteracy for our native English speakers” -of course because we have to use English to function as a society. But students don’t absolutely need literacy in Heritage languages (although they are helpful), and in some cases it would be impractical to provide L1 literacy instruction.
My Korean, Arabic, Kirundi, Kanjobal, Uzbek, and Chinese students will not get literacy instruction in their native langauges, though they are given English literacy instruction and special ESL services. We shouldn’t be too upset about Heritage Language instruction not existing for these children. We should be upset if they exist and are ineffective, boring, and waste students’ time.
Heritage classes without CALP are a waste of time. The notition that heritage students can just “learn to read a little” doesn’t work because language and literacy go hand-in-hand. Trying to separate them, teachers end up focusing on first on phonics, then (after students are fluent in decoding) on grammar; we can’t artifically suck content out of language like a vaccum. Reading, language, and the cognitive processes they rely on are inseperable.
Alisa made an excellent point about NELB students needing us to be a voice for them. If their parents could speak English and felt comfortable approaching administrators, they would be as loud and (justifiably) upset and this practice would stop. I’m not saying it’s an OCR violation, but… maybe?