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25 thoughts on “Kathrin Shechtman on Story Listening”
Thanks so much for this. I was inspired by the calm, cheerful teaching and was also riveted by the story…it was exactly at my level of acquisition.
“it was exactly at my level of acquisition…” One thing I am noticing is that it addresses all the kids. Those fast processors get more details but also the story. The slow processors get the major events but less detail. Everyone gets the input. The level of comprehension varies for each student but “noise” is also permitted. I am sure that babies get a bunch of noise but make impressions in the brain and multiple contexts for that input that it no longer becomes noise. This is considering that l1 acquisition is fundamentally the same process as l2. In our classes the stories build the context. Now the question becomes how can we provide more context to build better comprehension… FYI, I am terrible at drawing. Maybe I should start again during vacation.
Yes, Steven! The fact that there is built in differentiation in BOTH directions is what I love about this. We don’t differentiate up enough and I just had to think of something a mom told me about one of my students in advisory. She said that when asked for something more challenging for her son in his classes, he was given additional work. Not more challenging work, no THE SAME DAMN THING… just more. This reminded me of my 3D Design course in College as well, where my professor didn’t hold the class to the deadlines and when I was finished he said: “Ok, you could make another” Now I was older here and replied with “I think I will just go home early. I am finished, I am not doing the same work again.” I left. I would have been up to getting another assignment that was stimulating, but I flat out refused to be punished (because isn’t that what it is?) for being finished before others.
This got me thinking. We do this in TPRS with circling ALL. THE. TIME. Yes, repetitions are what makes it stick. Yes, we need to hear things more than ones before we acquire them. BUT some acquire faster than others. Trying to teach one sentence to mastery for all means asking the faster processors to do the same work over and over. This is not compelling, not enjoyable, not fostering active listening. It’s boring. We have to move further to natural repetition vs. forced repetition. (and just to clarify, I’m not saying that this isn’t also part of TPRS, just not enough)
I just wrote a post about SL on my website, if you’re interested.
http://www.welovedeutsch.com/home/listen-breath-observe
Kathrin this is a strong indictment of the concept of circling. When we start boring our fastest processors, that is not good. And yet it’s been done now since circling was announced in 2004. I was sitting two feet in front of Blaine in a big workshop in Denver when he announced it and at the time we thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.
I think the big question is, do we want to ensure that all students are acquiring the language within any given story through that one story or do we choose to let them acquire the words throughout many stories.
The earlier leads to working at the speed of the barometer student, as we are making sure s/he will be with us on every single word. It also leads to the expectations that everyone should have acquired the word by the end. The later leads to better differentiation up as it allows for more input and only natural repetitions. It also lets the students acquire the language at their own pace.
I am not saying that circling is all bad, but I do not think that it serves the high achievers. Pacing, numbers of repetitions and everything else depends on the needs of the students.
I think that to me the non-targeted work leads itself to natural repetitions and not to more circling. Maybe others approach it differently, but that’s what I have found this year. I also remember Tina saying the same thing, that she doesn’t have to circle as much because the words are stickier. This was in reference to the invisibles. I wonder how she feels about this within story listening? Tina?
…do we choose to let them acquire the words throughout many stories…
This question I asked Beniko Mason once: I asked is it best to say 1 word 100 times (i.e. circling it) or 100 words 100 times (i.e. totally free-range input) and she said that it is best to tell 100 stories 100 times! 😀
She has a way with words!
I feel like the words are sticky enough in SL. Kids are comprehending way more than I thought. Once I handed paper to the slowest kids in class. Even the slowest of them got half of what I was saying, enough to follow the basic plot.
I honestly care not if the words are “sticky” or not. Steve Krashen said that we should not worry about the words that we use. He said if they are important (HF I guess he means) then they will come back up, and if they do not come back up, well, they were not all that important. I like that; it relaxes me.
I agree with that, Tina. I have to say that my kids also showed that they comprehended the story at least at a base level, but many understand much more than that. And I already hear them use the words in commenting on other stories, completely unforced.
Steve, it totally doesn’t matter how well you draw. I wrote that to Jillian before she started it because she at first didn’t want to draw. The process of the drawing is key! The kids will laugh with you if the drawings are silly, it lets everyone relax and enjoy.
Yes! My drawings are my barometer! If I go too fast I cannot help the kids understand because my drawings are horrendous. Its fun. Usually when I draw something that is a total fail, I point at it, and ask “es obvio? es obvio que es un carro? (is it obvious it’s a car?) “Nooooo!” Then we have a laugh and I try again. The drawing really slows down the storytelling, but it’s not too slow. That is what the kids say anyway. They like the pacing better and listening to a whole story rather than small chunks at a time. At least for now.
Like Jen and Kathrin have said, our lack of ability can be used in a positive way. With that in mind, I would like to point out our drawings can improve by illustrating.
For drawing there are a few things to keep in mind:
1. Drawing is based on simple lines, straight and curved.
2. Drawing is based on simple shapes: circle, oval, square, rectangle, etc.
3. Caricature is capturing the uniqueness of a thing. Is it a circle (pig snout), a rectangle (cow), a triangle (frog). A whale another type of triangle.
4. Drawing is the result of observation which discovers the lines and shapes (both straight and curved) that cause us to recognize a 3-D entity on a 2-D surface.
Notice the masters. They did not use smudging to get shading. They simply controlled how close their lines where to each other and did cross-hatching. A greater density of lines creates shade. A sparseness of lines creates light. But it was based on lines.
Economy of lines is the key. There are times when students have helped me to see how adjusting a shape slightly (or entirely) made the difference in one thing and another.
Badass comment on how to draw, Nathaniel! Thank you! Next, we’ll all be good at math!!
I love this Nathaniel!!! I like to think of drawing as “seeing with a pencil.” In fact I remember a suggestion in a workshop where the instructor said “imagine your pencil is attached to your eyeball.” Kinda weird and kinda cool.
Re: math…I keep forgetting to do this, but on one of the James Asher videos I saw awhile back, he mentions a program he developed for algebra. “Someday” I will check this out.
🙂
A few questions:
1) Do you prepare a vocabulary list of items to be used as I have seen Beniko say she does?
2) Do you write out your version of the story ahead of time?
Beniko actually does give the kids a vocab list of words from the story to study at home IF THEY WANT TO. She says it lowers the affective filter if they want to re-watch and hold onto the words.
But she has no accountability for them.
Thank you, Tina.
That is true for a number of students, especially, I would think, for those who would get good grades in a traditional program.
When you say “re-watch,” it sounds like she is videoed for each class. Am I understanding this correctly?
Yes. She makes the videos available to her students online. I’m doing that too. Just not the part where we retell the story showing the actors. Oh wait that’s in stories with the invisibles. In Beniko’s stories she’s the only one who appears.
Yes it’s for those traditionally motivated students who “need” to review vocabulary. She says it lowers their affective filters. Makes it more like school.
I have not tried the vocab list yet, but plan to do that tomorrow. I try to type out my story beforehand but don’t always get to it. I like to not get all antsy at myself if I don’t have it typed up before class. Big deal, I type it up after. Who cares? I am writing all this for my own benefit, because I actually do “get all up in there” at myself for the smallest of things. Ridiculously trivial things. All the things. So I am practicing keeping a kinder attitude toward myself. The incongruous energy of berating myself while trying to hold kind space for students…um…does NOT WORK! Big ole’ DUH on that one.
Don’t mean to sound cavalier but 2017 for me has to be “all about me.” I said this today in class and they chuckled, so I know it was taken with the exact sentiment I intended. Yay! Everyone (including me because I was sick for most of the vacation) was super tired today. All we did was use the “talking bear” to sit in a circle and learn about each other’s vacation or whatever anyone wanted to share. Totally optional. All in English. Yes, I “wasted” instructional time in L1. It was great! Many kids who do not normally share anything…actually talked!!! Including the world’s quietest boy who literally sat with his hoody off to the side most of the semsester (engaged and always eyes up, but not really “in the group”). Today he sat in the circle without prompting AND he talked a lot!
My groups have felt precarious for about 6 weeks and so with only 4 weeks left I would love for them to know at least one thing about each other and maybe even feel a little bit like a group. Last day before break we did a cool activity (will share later, when we do part 2, so I can report on the whole thing). Today it felt like it would be good to feel like we are “back together” and moving in the same direction. Twod down one to go, and it feels nice and calm so far.
So, are many people here doing story listening/visual storytelling still? I found it to be difficult last year so I stopped doing it. But I’m wondering if I should pick it up again, once in a while. Or with my 2 classes that struggle with the self-control needed to create stories as a class.
Dana we really don’t have the field research. Krashen will always support Beniko in all areas. But as we have said here he’s not a classroom teacher. As far as I know, those two haven’t yet come out with any definitive statements about SL relative to TPRS. Beniko told me privately it should be 80% stories and 20% SL. But she was talking about NTCI stories, having just read ANATS and shared it with Krashen. Really it is we who must figure this out ourselves in our classrooms, as usual. So why don’t you try SL with all your classes and then report back here? If more PLC members did that we might be able to come to some conclusions on SL. Personally I predict that SL will be best used at no more than 10%. It’s not because it doesn’t work, but my own thinking is that middle and high school kids are just hard to reach and the added “pop” we get in stories is necessary to keep them interested. Before middle school, I think that SL would work much better bc the kids are naturally more motivated (I think the “fall from grace” happens around age 11 or 12) and the kids in university (Beniko) are not naturally motivated but are motivated extrinsically for either the grade or bc as in Beniko’s case they need English. Many middle and high school kids are motivated neither intrinsically or extrinsically – think of Craig’s kids. Schools have done that – taken kids between 12 and 18 and made, through sheer boredom and memorization, their intellectual lives into a kind of blob.
Dana if you do use SL w those two classes I would love to know if it works. Two things could happen: (1) they might all deflate on you. I say that bc most such classes have a few people in them who ruin it for everyone by being too loud and really their agenda is to draw attention away from the story to themselves and how cool they are. So in SL, since they must not speak they might react in a petty way and sulk a bit. If they emotionally control the others, then that would deflate the interest and SL would not be a viable plan to deal with those two classes. On the other hand, (2) since those kids can’t talk, it might free the class up for nice listening success w SL. All you can do is try. I am beginning to think that classroom management is all about emotional control. One of the reasons for the October Collapse is kids who have slowly pried their teachers hands off the mantle of control since August. It usually takes a few months for those little vampires to suck the energy out of the class. We must be strong and keep the emotional control over them. We cannot let them have emotional control over our classes with still six months left in the year. We must retain our cheerfulness and use it and the Classroom Rules and Plans A – E (ANATTY) etc. What harder job is there than to try to use cheerfulness against negativity? So many little head games being played. No matter, as long as we know we are cheerfully doing our best, that is all we can do. And I say our best is always going to be non-targeted stories. Certainly, teaching languages is no game. It requires strength born of understanding. We can do it.
For me SL works better with some classes later in the year, when they know your style and expectations, plus have a more solid L2 foundation, so that you can talk for an extended chunk of time without interrupting yourself to estab/clarify meaning. Smoother.
I did play with a fractured fairy tale version of the 3 lil pigs a few weeks ago cuz there was an observing teacher who wanted to see what it looked like. First I told the classic tale w/drawings. Much simplified. Then I retold it with the fractured fairly tale twists. They loved it and it lent itself to comparing the 2 versions. Though I don’t do the Mason straight up SL. The elementary modifications for me are: props AND drawings; some teacher/student interaction – sound effects; dialogue (SO if I am the wolf, I may say, “I am the wolf!” and then I make a gesture and the kids all chorally respond, “I’m scared!”) Call and response stuff.
This is what we need in elementary – taking what they do in secondary and qualifying it in the way Alisa does in the above comment:
…I don’t do the Mason straight up SL. The elementary modifications for me are: props AND drawings; some teacher/student interaction – sound effects; dialogue (SO if I am the wolf, I may say, “I am the wolf!” and then I make a gesture and the kids all chorally respond, “I’m scared!”) Call and response stuff….
One amazing thing about this, Alisa:
…dialogue (SO if I am the wolf, I may say, “I am the wolf!” and then I make a gesture and the kids all chorally respond, “I’m scared!”) ….
This is the essence of CI. CI in my mind is not about the old longer stories (too complicated) but little scenes like this that are SIMPLE! We err when we try to communicate too much, like an entire story. We want little scenes, w lots of reps, limited vocabulary, fun dialogue, sound effects, call and response type stuff, director’s cues, etc. Blaine called them Passive Personalized Mini Stories and they are still gold. Their only down side is that they don’t carry sustained interest. But in ANATS I try to show how we can extend a mini-story into a 25 minute story and still be totally simple and therefore easier to understand. The ideal story for me is a kind of big mini-story.
Dana, I often start class talking about the calendar, events on the calendar (I have a big poster paper I pull out at the beginning of class with a good 2×2 inch square for every day of the month. When November comes around, I’ll create one for November), including birthdays, sporting events, weather, or whatever. Often a little story comes out of it. Recently I talked about Shanique throwing a birthday party but not inviting Emmanuel. I talked about Pelumi running in the Cross Country race, but had to stop and walk. (I take the liberty to roast students a little. Just a touch. A slight bake.) About the dress Enni was going to wear to Homecoming. About Crispin chasing after Kevin Hart who ran the Chicago marathon this year.
Sometimes I plan a little 5 minute story to tell, like how we carved pumpkins on my daughter’s 1 year birthday last Saturday. I carved a bat in my pumpkin. Then the bat started to fly. Careful, bats fly around at dark when you’re walking the streets!
So far this year, my StoryListening type of stories have all been based on real life events. Either mine or the schools or my students’. Let’s call it the non-fiction text section of my curriculum.
Thanks for sharing Sean, Alisa. When I do SL I still use my call and responses. I also ask them important key meaning like “What does ____ mean?” Even when they have heard it before. It might break focus on the message but I do it for classroom engagement and management. I have told Hansel and Gretel, Star Money as well as other real life events like the time I went to the movies and the projector overheated. I would at most do SL once a week. I also do not think that middle school kids can’t handle it. If the story is good and the class culture is well put into place, it can work.